ICJ CASE — DAY 2
Israel asks the ICJ to throw out SA’s ‘curated and inaccurate’ genocide case
South Africa empties the word ‘genocide’ of its unique force and meaning, Israel argues before the World Court.
Israel has argued that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) did not have the jurisdiction to hear the genocide case South Africa has brought because critical conditions had not been met. It has asked the court to throw out South Africa’s case.
Malcolm Shaw KC argued that South Africa had not declared a dispute and that efforts by Israel to open talks had been rebuffed. “South Africa decided unilaterally that a dispute existed,” said Shaw, adding that “South Africa failed to demonstrate prima facie jurisdiction of the court and to demonstrate intent”.
Israel argued that statements by Cabinet members, army chiefs and Knesset members, which South Africa said were genocidal in intent, were only “random quotes” made in the heat of the Hamas attack of October 7.
Read more in Daily Maverick: ‘Nothing will stop this suffering, except an order from this court’ — SA sets out the evidence against Israel
He said that if Israel’s soldiers had then acted on the statements of alleged genocidal intent, the country had domestic systems to deal with them.
Lawyer on the Israeli side, Malcolm Shaw at the International Court of Justice in The Hauge, The Netherlands, 11 January, 2024. (Photo: EPA-EFE/Remko de Waal)
Israel repeatedly argued that it had acted with allowable and proportional force over the 96-day war, that warnings had been amply and timeously given ahead of bombing campaigns (what it calls ground and air operations), and that it granted significant humanitarian assistance. (These claims have previously been countered by the UN as false.)
Shaw said that Israel’s President Isaac Herzog and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had both spoken publicly about the need to limit harm to minimise civilian casualties. Herzog had said Israel had no intention of permanently occupying Gaza, he argued. (In the past fortnight, Knesset members have set out a post-Palestinian future for Gaza; others have raised plans to migrate Palestinians out of Gaza forcibly and the rest of Palestine).
South Africa dons a blind-fold, says Israel
Dr Tal Becker, legal advisor to Israel’s Foreign Ministry, argued that South Africa had exhibited wilful blindness in its application for Israel to be found to be plausibly engaged in genocide.
“It was a war Israel did not start and did not want,” said Becker, adding that “The civilian suffering in this war, like in all wars, is tragic and heartbreaking”. He said South Africa’s arguments had been “curated and inaccurate”. “The attempt to weaponise the term genocide against Israel empties the word of its unique force and meaning,” he said.
He said South Africa’s submissions had been nearly blind to the “wholesale massacre, mutilation, rape and abduction” by Hamas on October 7 2023. “The events of that day are all but ignored in the applicant’s submissions,” said Becker, adding that “If there are acts that are genocidal they have been perpetrated against Israel. There are many distortions in the applicant’s [South Africa’s] submissions [to the court]. But one overshadows all. It is almost as if there is no conflict taking place that threatens Israel’s existence,” argued Becker.
Tal Becker, Legal Counselor of Israel’s Foreign Ministry, looks on prior to the hearing of the genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice. (Photo: EPA-EFE/Remko de Waal)
Read more in Daily Maverick: Middle East crisis news hub
He criticised South Africa for continued relations with Hamas and said that the organisation advocated for the annihilation of Israel. The team played a clip of Hamas official Ghazi Hammad saying as much on Lebanese TV was played for the court as from October 7.
“South Africa should be instructed to end its support for Hamas,” as part of its obligations under the Genocide Convention, Becker told the ICJ judges.
He asked that the judges dismiss South Africa’s application as a “libel” and added: “The Genocide Convention was a promise to the Jewish people, all people, of ‘never again’. The applicant [South Africa] asks the court to betray that promise. It should not become an aggressor’s charter.”
Professor of International Law, John Dugard, lawyer Tembeka Ngcukaitobi and lawyer Adila Hassim, sit ahead of the hearing of the genocide case against Israel brought by South Africa, at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, The Netherlands, on 12 January, 2024. (Photo: EPA-EFE/Remko de Waal)
Throw out the case, Israel says
Israel has asked the ICJ to throw out South Africa’s case and argued that it is doing all it can to limit harm by warning of attacks.
It has argued that it is at war with Hamas, and the Israeli Justice Ministry official Galit Rajuan said the organisation used hospitals as military sites.
She put up photographs showing Hamas fighters firing at the IDF from hospitals and also other images from hospitals of what she said was evidence. However, these have never been independently verified and are only reported by embedded journalists.
She said that Israel had carefully mapped Palestinian-occupied territories to develop a system of warnings ahead of bombing campaigns and other military occupations. She said millions of leaflets had been distributed, and so had social media videos and other messages to warn Palestinians to leave ahead of attacks.
“The applicant [South Africa] tells not only a partial story but a false one. Yes, damage and harm have been caused but always as a result of Hamas’s method of warfare. The charge of genocide is frankly untenable,” said Rajuan.
Pro-Palestinian protesters stand in front of the International Court of Justice where a second day of hearings take place. (Photo: Michel Porro/Getty Images)
What now?
Israel has asked the ICJ to deny all of South Africa’s six requests for immediate preventive measures, including the end of military operations, the extension of proper humanitarian assistance (to stave off what the UN says is a famine) and the right to birth assistance for Palestinian mothers.
South Africa has asked the court to order the preservation and prevention measures in 10 to 14 days.
This week, four members of the Palestine Red Crescent were killed in an army operation.
By 11 January, 23,357 Palestinians had been killed, with more than 17,000 women and children among them. It is estimated that 8,000 people are buried in the rubble and that 59,167 have been injured, according to Gaza’s Ministry of Health. The UN uses these numbers. DM
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Hamas must have the world’s most talented and capable emergency workers to have identified, retrieved and counted some 23000 bodies from an active warzone. Come on people. This isn’t credible, like at all!
They only have to count the bodies before burial, not that difficult.
No – actually they first have to FIND the bodies. I promise you: no emergency workers in the world could do this so well on an active battlefield. Something is severely wrong with the numbers coming out. Personally, I think Hamas is lying – they have good motivation to do so in order to continue painting Israel in a bad light. Use your brain, not your emotions – reason says something is badly wrong there, while all you are all doing is fixating on the horror of people killed. Its beyond bizarre.
“Use your brains not your emotions”, that is something very uncivil to say. He/she was referring to official statements while you were just Speculating. So if there’s anyone thinking wit their emotions, it would most likely be you.
But I do agree with the point that Hamas could be lying in order to make Israel look bad.
Official statements?? Made by who?? The so-called Gaza Health Ministry… who it is commonly known is run by Hamas, the terrorist organization who slaughtered babies and women and children and innocent people on 7 October ? Their “official statements”????
Most credible commentators have said previous Palestinian body count numbers have post war proved to be remarkably accurate.
The numbers are very relevant but IDF have lost many lives because they are trying to be more precise on the ground and not just bomb from above.
Insensitive.
No, it really isnt. Consider how long it takes emergency workers to identity, count and recover the dead from a building fire. Multiple significantly to the scale of the claimed war. Only possible conclusion is Hamas is outright lying. Its simple reason – nothing to do with emotion. The same cannot be said for you.
Right. 23 000 bodies? That will take months to count.
A spurious point, because thousands have been killed. But how is it that we knew thousands were killed in tsunamis and earthquakes within hours? It’s not difficult to estimate. You know how many people lived in an area. You know how many people were evacuated. You know how many people are reported missing. There have been aid workers risking their lives in this territory for years. It didn’t start on 7 Oct. Most of those agencies are rigorous and they can count.
But say you are right, and they are off by a 1000. 2000 even? 5000? Is 18,000 killed a more acceptable number for you?
I abhor Hamas. But these forced removals of people from their homes and then dropping bombs on those who don’t leave is exactly what genocide is.
No child is a terrorist. They are only victims caught up in an awful situation. Whatever you may think.
You use what can be called common sense. However it is not that common, because unfortunately there are people who are much ‘smarter’ than us, who have invented various types of conspiracy theories, to vindicate their biases . Rationality is wasted on them.
23,000 over 100 days works out to 230 per day . I failed maths but not arithmatic at school , Glyn ! I did attend a school in a designated ‘coloured’ area, because I was not allowed to attend the white ones close to my home … in the ‘good’ old days. Maybe you will fail me in arithmetic also? And … do you remember in the presentation of our case at the ICJ, one of the presenters mentioned an average of 250 people being slaughtered daily in Gaza? Remarkable correlation of numbers … I think. But then what I think does not matter to the Glyns of this world, does it ?
Nonsense, it has taken months to complete the body count from natural disasters
Please dont be dramatic. I would expect actual casualties to be well below 5000. And mostly Hamas combatants of one form or another. IDF goes to ridiculous lengths to get civilians out of strike areas. Fact that everyone loves to forget.
Why do you hide your name and make outrageous statements like that? Ironic that certain people say the same thing about the holocaust!
Are you truly Rob Martin? No names are verified.
Are we supposed to ignore that you comment on credibility whilst having your name as Hidden Name? The irony is not lost.
How is AB transparent? How is any name on this thread transparent? Come on.
Well – unlike you, I value my privacy. So what? Do you have a cogent argument opposing my statement, or are you just playing on emotional strings?
you value your privacy, but you make outrageous statements and claims. can’t help wondering if the two are related?
You dispute the number of Palestinian deaths, 23 500, over 3 months yet accept that 1200 Israelis died in one day at the hands of terrorist! You say it isn’t credible!
I agree with you – I don’t think it made it to English-media but it was well publicized in Israel that it took the government and emergency services over a month to confirm every person who was killed or kidnapped on Oct.7. They had to revise casualty numbers a few times – granted, with small margins – but the identification of the bodies took weeks. Many bereaved families were disgusted with how long it took to hear about their loved ones. It’s laborious process even if you’re an efficient tech-enabled country. It’s improbable Gaza Health Ministry knows who is missing within hours, if they’re dead within days and whether they are combatants or civilians within weeks.
Yup. So if they lie about this, what else are they lying about, I wonder?
There are (or were) two million people living in the Gaza strip. It’s really not that unthinkable for them to have the capability to find and bury 20k+ bodies — the civilian population basically has two choices at the moment: either shelter as best you can, or act as an emergency worker and try to help your neighbours. It’s not like anyone will be going to the office to do their 9 to 5?
Yeah – not credible at all. 3rd option: listen to the IDF warnings and EVACUATE.
Typical one sided reporting. Israel’s photos cannot be verified but Hamas count of death toll is taken as correct and no mention of how many combatants killed and how many of the women and “children” are combatants
The reports states only that the casualty numbers are provided by Hamas and used by the UN. This does not mean they have been independently verified. Even if we assume that Hamas are inflating the figures (likely) and that some were actually not innocent civilians it still leaves a horrifying number of lives lost.
Actually the accuracy of the casualties is pretty relevant when you are trying to prove genocide. Not to be snide, but its kind of the point.
The number of casualties is less relevant {within reason) than proving that there is intent to commit Genocide
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
“a campaign of genocide”.
It’s right there on the definition of the word…..
“a large number” not “a number more than X” or “more than X% of the population”
What’s relevant is the legal definition of genocide, specifically the definition given in the Convention, not the top Google result.
Ummm, Was that not what hamas was doing when it invaided Israel ????
Actually, its about the ‘intent’ not the act. The intent to commit genocide is treated as seriously as if it had been committed, because the purpose of the convention was to PREVENT a genocide. Right there, in its name.
Not exactly – intent without action is meaningless, even under the law.
Cde Ferial has always been ANC.
She was also editorially responsible for publishing the ultra-woke article by Shelley Garland (and blocked me on Xitter for reminding her)
The real lesson is that Southafricans must ensure that we do not reach a situation like the Middle East (“all lives matter”) — resist the racecadres of the ANC, EFF & now “MK”.
How insensitive.
Funny how the South African government sides with Hamas terrorists but is mute when it comes to criticising Russian atrocities in Ukraine. It indicates South Africa’s slide into the wrong side of history. What an embarrassing disgrace.
As much as we abhor the Russian invasion, at no point has it come close to the blatant occupation and wilful killing of civilians. Hurding them into refugee camps and then bombing them. What you fail to appreciate that Hamas is a small part of the population, yet all Palestinians, Jewish, Christian and Muslim are being punished and killed at will.
No Jews are allowed to live in Gaza – nobody being killed at will. You ignore the fact that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure and civilians to hide behind. Thus they end up as targets. Hamas’s intention.
There are no Jewish “Palestinians”
Rob, regardless of what is happening in Gaza/Israel, what to me is the impact this war has on South Africans. I am Christian, but over many years have met some outstanding SA Jews and Muslims, both with impeccable character. This war is splitting our own country into many pieces. Journalists reporting on the conflict, their job, are annihilated, criticised and insulted in the worse possible manner. South Africa has been divided for a long time, and getting worse. Madiba’s dream of “the rainbow nation” is long gone
Sorry but that is rubbish, a quick Google search will tell you that there have been Jewish people living in Settler communities in Gaza, and have free movement in and out but because they were few, it wasn’t worth deploying an occupying force. The pro zionits only like to read comments from other pro zionists, not actual facts that are easily accessible. Can someone who supports Isreal actually reference verifiable facts to support their arguments? And no, that does not include passages from the bible.
Googled etc but unable to verify this. Doesn’t make sense either, surely they would have been slaughtered on 7 Oct too?
What do you think the Russians are doing in the Ukraine? Are they not bombing the buildings, homes, apartments, schools, etc?? Of course they are! And the Ukranians also fled their homes and cities… the difference is Egypt refuses to allow the Palestinian people to take refuge in Egypt.. so now the Palestinian civilians are stuck inside Gaza… and by the way Rob, where do you get the information about “Christian” and “Jewish” Palestinians in Gaza? Please do share your source… as far as I am aware the only faith in Hamas-ruled Gaza is Islam.
Let’s not be blinded by loyalty to who we like, I listened to both submissions.
South Africa condemned the October 7 attack and they stated that they cannot bring Hamas to ICJ because Hamas is not a state, there are available platforms they will use for Hamas.
The Israel representation brought damage control statements and said the genocidal statements were made in the heat of the moment but could not show detraction of those statements from the instructions to the IDF, the focus was more on how they have tried to communicate with south Africa than fixing the high death toll of civilians.
They argued that they have increased the humetarian aid by raising the number of trucks without denying the blockage of food,water and medicine an instruction issued by the ministers.
There is no ruling yet but I have not seen any elimination or discount of the allegations, I stand to be corrected
We can discount those allegations of increased human aid by listening to the various UN agencies operating in Gaza. All are claiming that medical aid, food and water are desperately short that we will witness a famine shortly.
Those UN agencies are the only impartial bodies with feet on the ground that we can listen to
The UN observers are impartial? Surely you jest!
You however are obviously impartial and have impeccable sources on the ground?
Nah. John. I just use my brain to deduce fact from all the fiction going around. Reality is none of us really knows what’s happening there. Media reports are not entirely trustworthy, and if you believe what Hamas says, then, well there is no real justification for doing so. They deliberately committed attrocities to create this mess. The IDF is not staffed by monsters, I think. They are just people. So I have massive issues with the version of reality being punted out by Hamas. Because they are known liars and murders. It absolutely blows my mind anyone listens to them.
It is a matter of fact, albeit not enough supplies.
You claim (stemming from the SA submission) that SA will deal with Hamas in a different forum. Yet it hasn’t happened. Instead our foreign ministry has repeatedly condemned only Israel, and had invited Hamas over for a nice visit.
Where have SA officials tried at all to discuss the situation with Israel? By dressing down the Israeli ambassador and adopting a resolution to shutter the Israeli embassy in South Africa?
There is no even handedness, nor any actual attempt for pursuing justice.
The ANC government continues to host and meet African and Russian dictators, warlords and actual perpetrators of genocide, but suddenly Israel needs reporting to the IJC. And suddenly South Africa has millions of dollars spare to fund this case, while our own children are dying in pit toilets in rural areas.
This is electioneering at its worst, and it is disgusting.
JL – nailed om the head.
Pure electioneering at its worst, doing what the ANC does best : divide and distract.
Amazing how the ANC want to run off to court in support of their terrorist friends, yet are not so outspoken about genocide happiness in Africa, support Putin and their communist buddies in Cuba and China.
And yes, they “respect” the court so much they refuse to carry out arrest warrants and even tried to “work a plan” to get Putin to SA without having to arrest him.
The SA presentation was big on outcomes and light on intentions.
And I read earlier this week how the ANC considered themselves “the most qualified to bring this case because if their experience in defeating the forces of apartheid. ” Yeah right.
Brush over the facts they can – it was largely the West (which ANC now secretly loathe) who did the most to end Apartheid by way of sanctions, and redact the ones they want forgotten (such as being terrorists bombing churches, pubs, malls etc …. getting their communist friends such as Cuba – maybe why they are still paying them off – to fight their battles for them, and many of “the leaders” running off to be trained in Communism and made rich by the overseas “donors”, while their supporters remained at home .
Or maybe their own killing sprees (based on factions and/or tribes) ahead of 94 elections?
I am sickened and heartworm at the killing and suffering -that which sparked the conflict and that now – but the ANC are in no position to be bringing charges.
Correct, the ANC is an embarrassment….as is Samar and his limited language.
When I heared SA was bringing charges agains Israel, the first thought that popped into my head was “What a perfect way to deflect attention away from the failures of the ANC”
Now I read here how this act has split SA in half. Well done ANC !!!
I just want to tackle one aspect of that: the notion that SA “dressed down” Israel’s ambassador.
A démarche is nothing but a formal presentation or a meeting with discussion points on a single topic. It can convey a government’s request, views, an offer, approval or dismay, or merely interest in that topic. Most journalists use the word to mean something severe and extremely negative, but the truth is almost all démarches are still incredibly diplomatic, even if they contain objections. Contrast the DIRCO media statement about the November démarche with the media’s reporting on it:
DIRCO:
“DIRCO démarched […] Ambassador […] Belotsercovsky, to discuss the ambassador’s recent unfortunate conduct relating to the unfolding, tragic Israel-Palestine war.
The DG stated that South Africa condemned the attacks on civilians by Hamas and stated that these actions should be investigated for war crimes. […]
[…] the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can only be solved through ending the occupation and through immediate talks towards a just and lasting peace for Palestinians and Israelis. […]
Ambassador Belotsercovsky was once again called upon to convey SAG’s concerns to Tel Aviv.”
Reuters:
“South Africa to call in Israeli envoy for formal reprimand
JOHANNESBURG, Nov 8 (Reuters) – South Africa will call in Israel’s ambassador to issue him with a “démarche”, or formal reprimand, […] potentially deepening divisions between the two countries over the war in Gaza.”
Snide and bracketed insinuations were absent from yesterdays report. Ferial you are obliged to report factually without the slippery insertions. No better than Qaanitah Hunter’s News 24 almost incoherent snippets that mostly omitted the cogent elements. It is disappointing to see you “conditionalising” your report that either skillfully (or lazily) fails to give the reader the appropriate information sans ‘influencing’ observations
I agree wholeheartedly. It’s a real pity as it is tarnishing her previously good name as a ‘journalist’, due to her blatantly showing her bias. So sad when even now the DM starts taking sides, same as ‘independent’ media.
I agree with Caroline and Gordon. That was so obvious. Sorry ” maar jou onderrok steek uit”
Ferial, Quaanitah, Samar, Faysal etc have a particular viewpoint. Those who are journalists should desist
Am unable to read comments from other contributors to DM, for some reason. However, Ferial, one of things I always valued of the best online medium in SA, is that they always give an opinion, liked or not liked. This article however, is extremely factual, which I could have read on any YouTube social page. This case is the most controversial in many a year. But would appreciate your personal opinion, as I value you as a journalist
Her personal opinion is all over this article where she accepts Hamas claims at face value but emphasizes that Israeli claims are unverified
Asked her, not myou
All facts in this article are checked by Enid Blyton. Even though they don’t need to be because Hamas would never lie. Rape, murder and mutilation maybe, but never lie
…whom are you. or Enid Blyton for that matter?
Enid Blyton . was a author of kids books. Are there still libraries ?
Well said Dexter. Long live Enid Blyton. Berfore she gets cancelled.
why would she get cancelled ?
I hope that the ICJ finds in South Africa’s favour and accede to most of the relief South Africa is seeking.
At the moment the only defence the Palestinians may have in Gaza is the ruling by the ICJ otherwise we may witness a horrendous genocide where thousands of Palestinians may die or be displaced
Shame on Israel, shame.
What about the ANC’s shame for the continued sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia and the UAE deployed to indiscriminately murder the citizens of Yemen…..but I suppose all is fair in love and war when Muslims kill Muslims ….with the help of the anc’ hypocrisy?
Yah what about it and where does it enters here?
Ncncnc hahahahahaa
It is a shame that the Palestinians have been let down by Hamas. It is a shame that even Abbas called Hamas terrorists. It is a shame that while Gazans were trying to live, Fatah and Hamas were killing one another. Its a shame that Gazans voted for Hamas. Its a shame that the West Bank Arabs would vote for Hamas today. Its a shame that the Moslems did not take their share in 1948, they could have had a state of their own. Its a shame that Islam hates Jews and swears Jewish destruction in the Koran. Its a shame that Hamas states the same and promised more like Oct 7 in the future. Its a shame that Moslems kill Jews shouting ‘god is great’. Its a shame that Islam will not permit a Jewish homeland. Its a shame that 57 odd Moslem states do not recognize the one Jewish state. Its a shame that Israel had to fight for its survival the day after it declared independence based on a UN resolution. Its a shame that the same charges of human rights abuses are not levelled at Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Yemen and most other Islamic states. Its a shame that Israel is singled out more than any other country at the UN. Its a shame that Jews were slaughtered by Moslems for centuries, since the invention of Islam in the 7th century. Its a shame that there are few Jews left in Moslem lands because 99% of them were expelled. Its a shame that I have to give history lessons on a DM thread. Its a shame that war was at all. Yes Mohammad, it is indeed a shame. Am Yisrael Chai
Israel cannot blame it’s actions on anyone not even Hamas, a country has policies, a charter and plans in place for any disaster guided by internal and international laws.
If their policy is remember Amalek, human animals, illegal occupation and asking other countries to accommodate people you don’t like, they can only blame themselves
On that basis one would have to say it’s a shame that the 1948 creation of Israel was not better managed and did not include consultation with the existing non Jewish inhabitants prior to declaration.
Let’s be clear that slaughtering Jews is a Christian thing. Jews lived in peace and safety in many Muslim Majority lands including Palestine, until post 1915, when militant Zionist Jews from Europe and other places came to Palestine and started killing and displacing the Palestinian people (green-lighted by the UK). Then violence against Jews started in other countries.
Jews were in Muslim lands because they were given refuge there when fleeing pogroms by Christian nations. Zionist Jews repaid over 1000 years of kindness that Islamic world showed to them, by doing what they did in 1948. An act of wretched ingratitude.
Muslims have no problem with the Jews having a ‘homeland’ – just not on the stolen and occupied land of the Palestinians, while they have to live in brutal and violent subjugation by the Zionists.
It is a pity this screed is so full of lies.
There were huge Jewish populations living in the Moslem countries, North Africa and Middle East, 60 years back. Hardly any left now
Many of them were in Islamic lands because they were given refuge in Muslim lands when fleeing from pogroms in Christian lands.
Then many of them rushed for free land, homes and farms in ethnically cleansed Palestine.
We have to acknowledge that the acts of violence and dispossession in Palestine made Islamic lands an uncomfortable place for Jews.
The Zionists wrecked centuries of cordial relations and respect between the two peoples. And it was their plan to get Jews to move to Palestine, whether willingly or unwillingly.
It is scary when persons use a distorted religious history to try and solve the problems and conflicts of the modern world.
For your information Nas Hodja it is well documented that during and after a siege of a Jewish tribe in Medina, Prophet Muhammad declared that all male men be executed and all women and children be captured as slaves.
After the presentation of the Israel delegation today the Palestinian supporters again chanted “from the river to the sea” . Need any more proof. They must have done that inside the court showing Hamas intent to destroy the Jewish nation
“the only defence the Palestinians may have in Gaza”
Hamas could hand back the hostages (taking of which is a war crime, the ANC also overlooked) and agree with Israel to a permanent ceasefire.
But that would go counter to their Charter.
It would help if Israel handed over, at a minimum the children and female hostages, of the 7000+ hostages they hold in their jails without trial, representation or visitation. Do you know if Israel hands over the bodies of Palestinian hostages when they die whilst in captivity? Hamas intent was clear we will swop your hostages for ours.
What 7000 hostages?
Hamas has already offered full exchange of hostages on both sides and a complete cessation of hostilities and the IDF withdrawing from Gaza.
Where did you get that information
That was their first offer all for all. Israel rejected it , assumed they could win the war ( or at least kill Sinwar) and rescue hostages . No one expected this to last so long or that IDF would not be able to rescue them.
False – patently false!!!
Why do Hamas not release the hostages or provide any information on them. All of your comment pro Hamas neglect this, as did the SA delegation
They following the same playbook that IDF has for Palestinian prisoners . I am not pro Hamas, i just like to have context . Red Cross has not got access to anyone picked up by IDF in West Bank or Gaza since Oct 7. Also families of those detained not allowed contact not even by a lawyer.
Haffajee knows better but her colours have always been nailed to the Hamas mast. Israel won on facts alone, never mind the ethical and moral efforts displayed by the IDF. There was no genocide and any intelligent person that understands English can arrive at the same conclusion when considering the facts and how they pertain to the Genocide Convention. Well done Israel – The truth will hurt the Palestinians more that Hamas did.
Neither side has won as yet
If Israel wanted to commit genocide and destroy the Palestinians and Gaza, they could have done so within a couple of days. They have the arms and the ability. This is purely response to a war declared by Hamas. Israel has no issues with Palestinians, but terrorists, well that’s a different ballgame. And if terrorists use civilians to further their cause and hide behind, there will be casualties. And that is on Hamas, not Israel.
Thank goodness I live in South Africa. I am proud that South Africa had the bravery and courage to take up a case of genocide by Israel with the ICJ.
I wonder how are those persons supporting Israel and living in South Africa feel at the moment.
We are feeling just fine. It amazes me that all the supporters of Hamas forget that the ONLY CALL TO GENOCIDE has been made by Hamas, not Israel. Maybe if the Israeli’s were running around chanting “from the river to the sea ” you could call them genocidal but they are not Hamas is and yet all of you conveniently ignore that.
Oh and while we are about it Judaism predates Islam by some 3000 years so whose land is it in the first place? the Romans called the place Judea, Christ was coming to be the king of the Jews, nowhere was Islam mentioned or in fact did it exist so please go smoke another tik pipe with your “ancestral home” nonsense
That’s not true Ivan there are 9 genocidal statements from the president and the ministers directed to IDF, on the prime minister’s statement the IDF composed a war song Remember Amalek specifically for their discriminate killing of Palestinians, even the lawyer tried to explain that the genocidal statements were said at the heat of the moment automatically call discrediting the Israel president and ministers fitness to rule the country within the confines of the law, the first requirement of a head of state is to be emotionally mature
How many genocidal statements have been made by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Isil etc. Which Arabic states have called for the complete eradication of all Jews for example? Our government ignored a mandated arrest for El Bashir, someone who had committed genocide, and in fact escorted him to an airforce base so he could leave the country. Now these clowns in our government want to appear to be all moral and pious. Please Tsek Wena
You are not wrong, you know. But the same applies to Hamas who have public stated the destruction and eradication of Israel as a goal. Funny no one complains about that, isnt it? Not a what-about-ism, btw, just an observation on the fact that you are not using balanced judgment to come to your positions.
Immaterial of the outcome of the decision by the ICJ, I am proud of the decision by our brave government to fight for the rights of Palestinians not to be subjected to a genocide. This fight makes me happy and makes me contented.
I wonder how are those South African persons supporting Israel feeling at the moment?
I am impressed with the Israeli presentation , it is hard to put lipstick on a pig , but they gave their best shot . Alas if it was at the UN or as public relations it works . The problem in a court of Law that a higher bar to reach. Legally the one item they have to rely on which i am legally unsure about , is whether there is a dispute between SA and Israel , if not case gets thrown out irrespective of merits . But if case goes forward , their is going to be a lot of shredding and rewriting reports.
Test
nobody is going to win this one but lets not forget who started this fight in the most atrocious way
The big win here is the Palestinian case is in the eyes of the world, irrespective who presents what Israel will start counting their steps.
We have been listening to Israel bitching and morning and playing victim and turning a blind eye to the occupation, the ICJ knows they are not only dealing with Israel as a state only but as an occupier and a promoter of illegal settlements, south Africa quoted a lot of statements and warnings from UN officials, 100 or more UN employees have been killed in Gaza and they are not Hamas, the ICJ is a UN body, Israel is not only facing south Africa although it looks like that on the surface
Context . It did not start on Oct 7 .23, it started in 1947.
Israel and Hamas will lose.
But the goals of Hamas have been achieved , 1 . Prove to the Palestinian public that the IDF can be beaten are not invincible . 2. Link West Bank and Gaza as a single entity break the split engineered by Israel . 3. Bring to the Arab public (Not Arab Rulers ) the plight of the Palestinians and the history of the Nakba . 4. Isolate the US for its support of Israel and as the sole arbiter of the Israeli/Palestine conflict . The bonus that they got was the attention of the world public , the new generation ( even some young Jews ) post Oslo , that have now identified with the Palestinian cause. ( changed the narrative of Israeli Jews as always the victims and never the aggressor )
Gaza and West Bank were always separate
So it seems SA has embraced the litigation tactics of Zuma and his lawyers for the ICJ. : A spurious case brought with ulterior motives; misrepresentstion, cherry picked facts , ommission of exculpatory evidence and a touch of blatant dishonesty. After all what’s wrong with telling the court a direct lie (for instance the chronology of the communications) if you can get away with it , and it serves your purpose.
However a court usually does not take kindly to being misled so there is a good chance SA will be reprimanded for abusing the court process. If so that grinning group photo of the team going on a jawl will look a bit embassing.
Well said Sydney. Anyone who lives in SA and has experience of Government ineptitude will be able to relate to the revelation that the foreign affairs department totally dropped the ball and the SA delegation lied about it. Hopefully this will count against them.
The problem is Israeli legal scholars are worried . They impressed with the presentation. They want answers how Israel govt and allies allowed this to get so far. The preparation for this case must have been in the works for at least a month , was Israel , US , UK and German intelligence asleep at the wheel .
I agree that the actions of the IDF in Gaza constitutes genocide. But it MUST be acknowledged that the ultimate purveyor of genocide is none other than Yahweh/Jehova/Allah. When he/she/it decided to obliterate humankind in the flood (sans Noah and family) this entailed the genocide of innocent children. Indeed, the Israelites enraged this meglomaniac by not completing the job with the Midianites (although he/she/it did spare all the virgins for the pleasure of his/her/its “chosen people”). All three Abrahamic religions claim divine sanction for their atrocious acts and it seems unlikely that there would be such levels of conflict if people could give up these absurd beliefs. So sad that the majority of Africans continue to embrace them.
Agreed, but your stark reminder of a history of a God that most likely has not existed at all, is no help in finding a solution to the current situation where the Palestinians are facing a genocide.
You are correct in your criticism. I just finished listening to Bernie Sanders addressing the US Senate. If only he were at the helm in the USA. He would not hesitate in withdrawing all military support for Israel and channel it to the rehabilitation of Gaza.
Bernie is senile, albeit a nice guy
Indeed you are correct
May your eyes be opened 🙏🏻.
The Israeli presentation stated fact after fact of exactly what happened, and is happening, in Gaza. Their language, unlike that of the South African legal team, was precise and unequivocal with specific information on the facts they presented. SA’s lack (or ignorance thereof) of the necessary procedural work required in cases brought before this court, was highlighted by Israel and shows how ill prepared SA was in a case of this magnitude. Ramaphosa’s gushing praise of the team yesterday and his assumed pride of the nation in their efforts is laughable. Once again we are laughing stock on the international stage.
I have a feeling that your gloating will stop abruptly when the ICJ rules on this matter. I, on the other hand, am a proud South African to be represented by a government that was brave enough to fight for Palestinians not to be subjected to a genocide. This pride will not disappear, immaterial of the ICJ’s ruling.
Both sides presented a well thought out case, it is now in the hands of the court.
Just wonder how the bulk of Israeli citizens feel about the actions of the Israeli Government and military. Would be surprised if they won another election whenever that might be, or ever for that matter
Military have a high approval rating. Have to as a conscript army you cannot distrust the the Army , because that means not trusting yourself. Netanyahu and his coalition they out in next election.
I find it difficult to understand how you can have free and fair elections in a Jewish state. Similarly, I find it difficult to understand how can you have free and fair elections in a Islamic theological state such as Iran or a Islamic theological kingdom such as Saudi Arabia?
Israel is not technically a Jewish state – they are secular, but grant citizenship more easily to people who are of Jewish ancestry. This would be why there are many, many Muslims living comfortably and happily in Israel and under Israeli law. Facts matter, guys.
According to polls conducted soon after the 7 Oct:
* 57,5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza
* 61,4% of all Israelis give Netanyahu’s performance during the war a negative rating
* 28,8% of Jewish Israelis favour of a two-state solution
Despite the horrors of what has been and still is going on in Gaza I think SA will lose this case simply because they did not show intent on the part of Israel. You cannot prove Genocide without showing that there was intent to commit Genocide no matter how many people have died.
It would have been far easier to prove war crimes on the part of both Hamas and Israel.
South Africa’s 84-page application included 9 pages dedicated to proving intent, by citing genocidal statements made by Netanyahu and his war cabinet. Read it.
Yes indeed they tried to show intent, we will have to wait for the court’s decision to see if they succeeded.
i give 50/50 . But though Russia did not challenge the case against them . with similar evidence the court gave a injunction against Russia. Now the judges that voted yes in that case , how do they explain if they vote no in this case .
Judges do not vote hopefully. They use their minds, reasoning , facts and law
Itsnot a war cabinet….but the statements come from Knesset members, some of whom might represent the Government
It’s a truism to say that this will depend on the courts and application of the law. My view is that the genocidal intent is there not because of the bombing campaign and use of indiscriminate weapons, but rather because of the long history of occupation and the process of ethnic cleansing. In the most recent conflagration, the process of erasing Palestinians – both the people and their history – is made clear through the destruction of universities, schools mosques etc. What I haven’t noticed much comment in terms of genocidal intent is (1) the starvation of the population (according to UNRWA the ENTIRE GAZA POPULATION are in crisis or worse levels of acute food insecurity) which, besides being a war crime, is a slow strangling of the Palestinians (2) the destruction of the Palestinian public health system which will result in additional deaths due to the inability to respond to disease outbreaks etc.
So while the term genocide should be used lightly, when one considers the last two points alone, the intent to commit genocide and strangle the population is there both in word and in action.
No country should consider itself above the law. Cutting of food, water, electricity and medical supplies for 2.3 million people is a war crime and should be punished as such. More than 1,000 children have had amputations without anesthetic in Gaza, according to Save the Children. More than 25,000 children have been orphaned. This war is a stain on our collective conscience and the longer it continues, the further we are from any chance of peace for the region.
Well said Izzy there is no case for south Africa to win. There is a case for an immediate cease fire to stop the human suffering and it is in the interest of the ICJ to do so to stop further losing UN employees in the bombarded refugee camps, south Africa has won by successfully hauling Israel to stand in front of the ICJ a UN body, they might as well come back home
Ceasefire by who? Hamas is in more of political warfare with Israel than military. The strategy consists of baiting Israel to attack so as to bring international condemnation on Israel and also preclude any peace talks. Even mounting Gaza civilian deaths have not resulted in Hamas abandoning its strategy, because why abandon a winning strategy? The more deaths the better. The South Africa case was the coup de Grace of this process of delegitimisation. It was less about the merits of the case or the case itself but the court public of public opinion and offering confirmation bias to the anti Israel and anti West sentiment.
Congratulations SA you delivered, just as the ANC Green Book advised. Never mind that your love afar is spite at home (to quote Emmerson).
For Israel Bibi has failed to read the room. No matter how justified the military campaign has been, all it leads to is a Cadman victory. It is a victory that ruins.
In a few months, Netanyahu will have his reckoning with the Israeli electorate but the Arab Palestinians will be stuck with Hamas and an international community that uses them for ownage of the “Zionist” and the West.
for an unbiased reporting institution, you sure aren’t shy of which side of the scales you’re tipping with your parenthetical commentary.
it is understandable that south africa takes this stance… look at our own justice system and how it protects its citizens… what has happened to our slaughtered farmers, slain civilians, butchered economy… south africa should remove the log from its own eye before trying to look for the splinter in someone elses. and the media – those who claim nonbias- should actually do their jobs and stop trying to be politicians and bending people’s opinions.
The first time I have feared that the Maverick is slanted in their views/opinions and not fairly presenting both sides of the story and the full facts, from both sides of the conflict. Be careful not to be directed by the emotionally unstable individual, within the ranks.
Where is the not presenting both sides, did you see yesterday’s article about the first day of this trial? Perhaps you missed it. The DM is one of the few news sources that presents both sides, although perhaps not always at the same time and manages to equally offend everyone!
I am talking about yesterday’s very pro SA/Hamas view on proceedings and the cynical comments on Israel’s presentation today. !?
Exactly!
That’s your own bias speaking. And the fact that you refer to Palestinians as “Hamas” confirms it.
Photographs are mentioned as “not independently verified” but the Hamas-supplied casualty figures are accepted without comment?
The fact that you agree there is casuality of human beings the number becomes irrelevant for the court, unless Israel can prove reprimanding wrong doing of the army and the stop on civilian killings unfortunately there is reported deaths today and there is breakout of disease in Gaza and no medicine.
Ever imagined being operated without anything to dull the pain not even a pig can survive that
The Tigray war in Ethiopia for the last couple of years is an undeniable example of targeted ethnic cleansing, and yet, almost none of us even know about it, unbelievably.
The numbers of dead dwarf this war – 160,000 to 600,000 deaths according to Ghent university. The perpetrators have expressed their intention to target on the basis of ethnicity. International scrutiny? Hardly much. And in Africa too. It is worth asking why South Africa didn’t launch an ICJ case, isn’t it?
South Africa is not responsible for all the civil wars in the world.
Palestine humbly approached south Africa for assistance and south Africa agreed in line with our constitution and foreign policy.
We have our two bob with the ANC but south Africa as a country is respected world wide for achieving democracy without a river of blood and retaliation through a civil war, the case is not about a conflict between south Africa but a conflict between Israel and Hamas and the decision by Israel to massacre Palestinians as collective punishment as statement issued by Israel ministers and the president.
The ICJ is not looking at south Africa as a party to the conflict but a member bringing war crimes to their attention, Israel proved the the genocide intent on their own free will, in their comfortable space inside Israel.
None of us? Who’s us? Or you think you’re google and only you know things?
Don’t embarras yourself online
Meh… so what?
It’s not as if any ruling by the ICJ will make one jot of difference on the ground.
They’re about as useful as the UN, which still allows Russia to remain a permanent member of the security council, with veto powers and all!
End of the day, Israel will do as it pleases as long as it is supported by its powerful, bellicose Western allies, and we’ve all seen what happens after that…
If you’ve forgotten, ask Iraq, Afghanistan, Kurdish rebels, Vietnam… the list is long, do your own research.
You may be right Julian but the ICJ, ICC, UN, WHO, etc etc are the world’s highest decision makers in the world presently. Providing moral direction and decisions is a process that improves over time, albeit slower then expected. We have a duty to use the institutions, faults and all, firstly to record the wrongfullness that has occured and secondly to provide the moral direction that we need.
So thank you Julian for this criticism that will improve or even replace these institutions in the decades to come.
I don’t see any other reason for Ramaphosa to have gone this far, except as an attempt to get some form of international recognition for himself and the ANC. By the same token why don’t we take Russia to court for the same reason, and perhaps also many African countries.. I would also like to know what this adventure is costing me as a tax payer.
There was no need to intervene on Ukraine’s behalf. The Ukraine is a full UN member and has the right to appear before and to lay charges before the ICJ. And it has exercised those rights.
Neither Gaza nor Palestine are accepted as UN members (Palestine has “observer” status). They may not speak before the UN, and they have no access to the ICJ. So a third party is required to act on their behalf.
A case of hypocrisy? ‘it’s a humanitarian catastrophe with what is happening in Gaza’!!
How can people live without food, water and electricity!?
How many people in South Africa live in these comparable circumstances, and the ANC does nothing!!
Now this is a well put point
You have a point Gavin, but your point gets lost when you compare the poverty of persons living in South Africa with the genocide taking place in Gaza.
Is Israel’s response unproprotionate – yes
Should Israel use more restraint? – yes
Should Israel do more to help civilians and minimalise casualties? – yes
But is it Genocide? – Absolutely not
This is purely a political move by the ANC to drive support for the election
Terrible choice of user name
Do you think this is a bot or AI generated ? or really pissed when signing on
Absolutely yes. Cannot believe that DM allows it .…
I don’t know why South Africa bothered to take this matter to the ICJ when they could have taken it to our local ICJ named Poe’s who already has a verdict.
We have learnt throughout history that when the Jews quit a country there is cause for concern. Thanks to the ANC HAMAS alliance, SA Jews are no longer safe in SA. Thanks to the ANC HAMAS alliance, no Israeli embassy exists, no diplomatic support for South Africans in Israel (or Palestine) Now, I can hear your replies…. “If you’re not happy or safe in SA, just leave!” Well that’s always an option for us. We are a resourceful people. However the ANC makes it difficult to have any pride in a country that openly supports a terror organisation like Hamas. What happened to this glowing first world constitution the ANC and its acolytes love to boast about? What happened to protecting your citizens? I guess they will, provided they’re not Jewish. The young Jewish cricket captain got sacked because he is Jewish. Disgusting display of antisemitism by the ANC and CSA. Thankfully we have Israel. Without Israel there would certainly be another Holocaust. Hamas made that abundantly clear. The new nazis wear black and white keffiyeh. The case for a strong Israel is reinforced every time we hear the allah death chant. Oct7 was crossing the Rubicon for Israel. There is no going back. Peace with the Palestinians is off the table until there is enormous reform in their entire ideology. They will not have a state. Israel cannot have a genocidal nazi project on its doorstep. It’s a shame, for Palestine. I’m not concerned for Israel. Am Yisrael Chai
David Teeger was not sacked because he is Jewish. He got sacked because he made comments that were possibly more emotional than well thought out. I disagree with his removal but it was not because he is Jewish.
He is 19 years old and Jewish. There was a legal enquiry and he was cleared…..join the dots
He actually didnt make a statement – he made a gesture, according to reports. That poor kid is being pilloried because he feels sympathy for the victims of a brutal terrorist attack. Its absolutely insane.
Why did the World Court not ask any question to the two parties? And why were no cross-questions allowed to be ask on legal arguments? In essence it appears to be toss-up coin by 19 world judges, on one of the most important genocide (or at least alleged) cases since WW2. Or does not world simply do note care, whilst thousands will still die
That for the main case
From reports that could take years. Wonder how much will be left by then, on either side. Don’t believe either party will ever stop. And in fact can escalate to something much, much worse
You obviously do not know how this works. It is not a criminal or civil case as customary. Evidence is led by both sides, then the judges go off and have meetings and discussions to iron out any sticking points, the each judge decides for him/herself what they make of it and a simple vote decides what the outcome is.
So, everything is dependent on the opinion of each judge, which might be so easily swayed by their own personal feelings and/or inherent support. In the meantime, people die, on both sides of the equation
I do feel that Ferial Haffajee’s reporting is not completely unbiased.
I know that for many, many people, this story is very emotive, but you do Daily Maverick and good journalism in general, a dis-service, Ferial.
You can do better than this, Ferial.
Peter it is usual practice for people not convinced of their facts on the side they want to win to shoot the messenger, Ferial did not fabricate any of the events pertaining to the genocide allegations, if the events are biased towards one party against another it is not her fault.
Good reporting is telling people everything even what they prefer not to hear, truth hurts sometimes
Here’s a lesson in journalism Peter. A journalist does not have to be neutral or unbiased when writing their articles. All journalist have their own particular, unique background. What is required is that journalist do not distort or fabricate the facts.
All journalists are bias . Even when only stating facts , they can influence the story by use of emotive language.
I listened to the proceedings, the curated / edited article by Ms Haffajee in (.brackets.) is most interesting,
I don’t know what to make of that, the critique of “embedded” journalists, lack of “independent” verification, another question mark….
I am not a qualified, graduated journalist, but I did spend almost 30yrs as an Audio Engineer, preparing live inserts, for News and Live Content programmes, in four of the languages the SABC broadcast in!
And we were clearly trained that during editing and or preparation for broadcast that context remained, both in time and length thereof, of preferably under 3minutes.
The live YouTube I watched was via enca.com and the ONE thing that stood OUT, was the repeated assertion that South Africa, failed to engage, properly, the Rules of Engagement of the ICJ…. Declaration of Dispute and protocols that are mandatory between the Parties, i.e. discussions!
Audi Alterem Partei, applies in South African Law! (It is a requirement, a must to inform the opposing party….)
Anton rules of engagement and procedures are technicalities and when argued will rightfully be accepted and condemned by the court.
A case that involves 2 million lives will never hinge on rules of engagement or procedure the urgency is to save and preserve lives.
The genocide intent is very crucial because it says if no action taken 2million or more lives are at stake,so far 23000 in 3 months is hectic and cannot be overlooked.
The genocidal intent of Hamas you mean, Hamas is the only party in this conflict that has made their intent to commit genocide clear and unequivocal
One thing I do not understand. Israel warns an area before bombing it. How exactly is Hamas kept in the dark? If anything, Hamas is more mobile than the average citizen.
No Stephen Gaza is enclosed nothing is allowed in or out by Israel, water,fuel,food and medicine included a lot of bombing happened in the south where Israel advised the Palestinians to move to.
The Palestinians are slaughtered like game, they are cornered to a secluded spot then bombed that is why 100 or more UN workers were killed because the Palestinians sought shelter in schools and refugee camps as advised by Israel to be bombed later
Kenneth, your comments lack credibility based purely on the fact that you are not in Gaza – or are you ?
If I was in Gaza I will most probably be lying in the south dead under the rubble
But you are not, so your statement is not credible
Totally agreed, this continues use of the “Kak” Word is becoming a little long in the tooth, enjoy your comments and point of view, however let’s show some form of consideration for other readers please.
A couple of factual inaccuracies:
It is Israel and Egypt that are blockading.
The aid convoys are indeed coming in to Gaza. They do get blocked and delayed at the border coming in, but they are coming in.
Kak
My apologies to Samar for appending his or her famous phrase.
No, it’s FACT, no matter how much you don’t like it it’s still the truth
Here’s the telling error in Israel’s response to the ICJ application, right there: “The Genocide Convention was a promise to the Jewish people, all people…” Even syntactically, the Jews think of themselves as preceding, being exceptional to “all people”. How different that sentence would read if the Israeli lawyer had said: “The convention was a promise to all people …”
I also picked that up , was wondering if he had misspoke
The Genocide Convention was indeed focussed on Israel in light of the Holocaust, that is what the promise of “never again” means
Yes , but is “never again” for humanity not only Jews . The tour of Auschwitz repeats that .
Wow such bias in the reporting.
What was profoundly disturbing for me this evening was the SABC’s editing of Israel’s day in court today interspersed with clips from SA’s presentation of its case yesterday (including footage of Ronald Lamoloa, an ANC cabinet minister at the Hague, who is not part of SA’s legal team). This was done to create the impression that Israel said X today, and South Africa immediately countered with Y. This amounted to distorted and biased journalism. The take-home messge: the SABC is not neutral (as it professes to be), and is not to be trusted. If you disagree with my obsvervation (the manipulative editing of Israel’s “right of reply” to SA’s accusations yesterday) please get hold of and watch the SABC’s news report.
The ANC’s Brilliant Election Strategy
Who would have thought that the ANC would be able to pull the proverbial rabbit out the hat? The know they won’t get 50% and that it is a very real possibility that they would need to get into bed with ‘whomever’ to retain shared power – which is better than no power at all. Things look really bad, so they have one goal prior to the elections: stop things getting worse. In this case the ‘things’ I refer to aren’t crime, unemployment and mismanagement, but a loss in the ANC’s brand equity.
If you want to unite people, the easiest and quickest way is to find a villain. Donald Trump chose Mexico, and irrespective of his nous to run a country, won the election. It is a sobering reminder to realise that one should never overestimate the electorate’s ability to understand an issue, and never underestimate the electorate’s ability to react to an issue.
Enter Gaza. The ANC initially provides a balanced view on the conflict, but later spots the gap and takes it. If they can find another villain (not themselves) for the country to focus on, they can contain the electorate’s focus on their inability to run a country. This is brilliant in its simplicity. The ANC then makes a case of genocide against Israel – and sends a superb (paid) legal team to argue the case in front of the world. However, here’s the genius part – they know that the case of genocide won’t hold, but that’s its beauty – if the appeal to the ICJ fails, then the villain is still out there and retains is focus – away from the ANC! They can then hold on just long enough to get enough votes to form a coalition to run the country.
Can you remember the last time a political party won popular support by painting the Jews as the villain? I’ll give you a clue: it was the 1930’s.
Also as the ANC is a great friend of Russia, It will take the Russian/Ukraine war out of the world headlines, Putin declares he want to elimate Nazism in Ukraine and applauded by the ANC, but stay quiet about Hamas being terrorist group ,
I should read Sid’s diatribe just before my bedtime. It’s guaranteed to put me asleep.
You are correct – it is just another theory – and hence a great narcoleptic. I just wonder why our reporters aren’t intent on finding out where the hundreds of millions came from to prevent the ANC’s liquidation? Happened soon after our visit to Iran. However, correlation is not causation.
Where do you live? Anyway I understand where you are coming from and the fact that you only understand the thinking of only less than 5 million South Africans.
Let me bring you up to speed as a person that knows the majority of people living in this country.
Majority of us knows a couple of things.
1. We know exactly who the ANC is and how corrupt they are AND, what they do overseas will never change what we knew we gonna do in 2024 election. We are black people and things like what is happening in the ICJ have no bearing on our thinking
2. We know that the DA is a National Party, the Nazis of South Africa and no matter what, we aren’t voting them. We don’t forget the atrocities they did on us even though we are a forgiving people.
3. People that may have voted for the DA, the Cape Muslim community, the DA can kiss that vote goodbye because they have shown the Muslim community that they aren’t only the Devils Alliance but also satanists. The community painted a flag of Palestine to be removed by the Devils Alliance.
That’s that.
Thanks – puts things in perspective. Will you be voting?
Wouldn’t it be great if our “top legal team” could be deployed to prosecute our local and demonstrably guilty parties.
Well what can one say but, leave it in the hands of the Almighty God. He knows what his doing, whether it’s yesterday today, or tomorrow. My belief is, there is a reason for everything that is happening in this world, it doesn’t matter if we agree or not. That’s my take on this Palestinian/Israel conflict which will go on until they Kingdome Come.
Canada just lost its human rights record , it is one of the countries that is always at the forefront of cases against countries for human rights violations. Their own submission to the Genocide Convention in another case is exactly like SA , but in this case they oppose . So for Canada International Law matters except in when Israel is the alleged . Wonder how they going to spin this.
Thank you for this info Dexter. I am surprised at Trudeau’s remarks, given his standing concerning human rights. The opposition in Canada is claiming Trudeau is hypocritical by sending out messages of support to Israel when talking to Jewish supporters and being critical of Israel when talking to Muslim supporters.
Such a shame. I always felt he would champion human rights above all. I was mistaken.
This sounds like weak defense
There is something wholly obscene about South Africa taking the moral high ground in The Hague. A country mired in corruption reaching to its highest levels of government, where children starve because funding for their food has been stolen, where the murder of women goes unchecked and more than half its population are unemployed has no moral standing on any matter of international standing.
100% correct. Why is there not a case against the brutal farm murders in SA ?
I generally watch cnn& sky nightly , read X every day and pick up an article of interest on fb . I do enjoy the early morning snippet of your editorial – most of the news covered as above . It is not unreasonable to expect payment for such good work though . Maybe there’s another interest subject to include . We are all flogged to death with politics , economics and sport , a lot of which needs accuracy testing as in News 24 eg
Used to enjoy cnn, but after Ted Turner sold the company and the changes to their editorial policy in 2002 , they never been the same .
“The Genocide Convention was a promise to the Jewish people, all people, of ‘never again’.”
So once again it’s all about the Jewish Holocaust. As in “there were only six million Jews killed in the concentration camps. Stuff anybody else’.
BUT According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), the Holocaust was “the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators”. In addition, 11 million members of other groups were murdered during the “era of the Holocaust”
True , the Roma. did not even get a mention , and are still persecuted in Europe today never ever got Justice.
Interesting how they mention ‘embedded journalists’ in Israel’s evidence of Hamas firing out of hospitals, but nothing of the sort for the Gaza health ministry (Hamas) stats or any of the other claims of evidence against Israel when it’s been proven that multiple ‘independent journalists’ in Gaza are linked to Hamas
Daily Maverick is one of few accurate and challenging news providers for South Africans.
If you believe that the Easter Bunny says Hello
Not “is”, Was
One should clean your own house before critisizing another’s.
Wilful blindness by SA? More like wilful stupidity. I have yet to see SA express any sympathy for the Oct 7 victims.
?
You are all arguing about trivia…
1) Who attacked who? (Hamas attacked Israel)
2) What was & is the stated purpose of the attack ? (To wipe out Israel / Jews)
3) How much detail do you need to work out which side is trying to commit Genocide ?
4) The reason for the South African accusation is the ANC is trying to capture the Muslim vote for the election. (I hope the Muslims are not fooled)
With respect, I think your comment is an insult to South African Muslims
Shame, the truth hurts hey
These asides in and out of brackets by Haffajee tells us the slant in her reporting…..comments from Knesset members for example are merely from MP’s voicing their thoughts, much as our own in soon whatever
I just subscribed to News 24 to see for myself if the claims of biased reporting by Ferial Haffajee is true. And yes. A completely different story is told ( backed by recordings taken from the ICJ court proceedings yesterday). I am disappointed in DM.
The ultimate tragedy is that peoples can be lead by individuals who risk whole populations, often their own. Individuals who heap new tragedies on top of past tragedies. May the ICJ order Sinwar and Netanjahu to settle the conflict by a duel to the death with blunt knives. Both are failing in their own terrible ways.
Israel is right, throw out the case. Why is SA acting like Hamas is their love child? SA must focus on its own problems, of which there are too many, like crime, murder, mafia syndicates, spend some money on infrastructure maintenance, and start criticizing Russia and Zimbabwe if you really want to get involved in other countries affairs.
I think that you fail to appreciate the threat that genocidal conduct has for the whole world. As to a focus on domestic problems, as the saying goes ‘one can walk and chew gum at the same time’.
Yes, the threat is that if Israel is sanctioned, it gives carte blanche for every terrorist organisation in the world to attack whom it pleases
I am really disappointed that DM can publish such a biased article and to top off in your editorial you compliment Ferial on the quality of it! Did she even watch Israel’s full presentation? It does not seem so and certainly is not the defense argument that I watched on TV yesterday and is profoundly under reported and one sided.
Shame on you DM I have always believed that one could obtain balanced news in your publication.
A very biased article by Feriel. The constant bracketed comments reveals her seeming need to counter the arguments made by the Israeli legal team. Why does she find this necessary? Does DM have an editor who reads these articles and makes changes? I find this disappointing and expect a higher standard of journalism from DM.
It is sad to see the low level of comment that has arisen amongst some Maverick readers over this controversial topic. Words such a “kak”, or accusations of anti-Semitism, simply because you do not agree with Israel’s conduct of the war against the Palestians in Gaza, do not belong here, whether you agree or otherwise with the preceding comment.
We all have an opinion on the topic and that should be respected.
Also attacking the messenger who prepared the article under tight deadlines is totally uncalled for. If you disagree with her article, say so, and say why in a reasoned and non-emotional way.
👏👏
Regardless of the side we take, SA presented strong arguments on Day 1 and Israel presented strong arguments on Day 2. We should have expected nothing less – such is the importance of this case. Reading all the comments, it is clear that our responses to this landmark case are founded in our personal biases and whether or not we believe the respective ‘facts’ cited. Always, we must keep in mind that the first casualty of war is Truth.
For me personally, living in a world where the US and UK are quick to protect goods on ships, but do nothing to protect innocent civilians and children, is untenable. We cannot continue to hide behind ‘what about’ and ‘who started it’.
Regardless of the outcome, and notwithstanding our government’s poor track record, I am deeply proud of the efforts made by the SA legal team to stop the killing.
Although I thought Team ZA had presented an excellent case, I must admit in the circumstances that Team Israel came back in the circumstances with a very good counter position. Their prime point being that South Africa had not fully exhausted consultation between the parties. This is a mere technicality as Israel would have not desisted their current form of the pursuit of the war. However, in legal matters technicalities count.
The argument of pre-warning prior to bombing is a continuation of their playbook going back to the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerulsalem by the Irgun under the future Prime Minister Menachem Begin in 1946. This terrorist act against British military and intelligence killed 91/92 persons. They claimed to have warned the British prior to the bomb exploding and demolishing a wing of the hotel.
The current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has defended this act saying it was done by freedom fighters and not by terrorists. This sounds very familiar!
I have spent the last hour reading the comments appended to this article about the ICJ case. This has been most enlightening. It sounds like a group of 9th graders arguing about last night’s episode of an action serial. History definitely did not figure in the curriculum of most proponents schooling and personal slurs are just below the surface of the commentary. Facts seemed to be secondary to emotion, mostly taken from social media. The main story however is who has convinced the judges of their side og the argument. This is not like a jury trial, judges must be covinced individually, and a simple majority must agree. All the bleating will change nothing.
Yes Carl, I fully agree with you! Many of these comments are just plain crude and insulting, and add nothing to the debate. It is most disappointing that these were even published, which talks to a failure in DM’s moderation processes. It is also notable that the bulk of the uncivil responses above emanated from a handful of contributors, and therefore the ability to block such individuals (as provided by Business Day of old) would be most welcome.
Why do they waste taxpayers moneys knowing whell ahead it will come to nothing?
This is not our war,they should warry about the 36000 black and the rest of the colours
that are killed every yoear in south africa.
What is worse a war or wantom killing.
Please do not forget we are living in the unprecedented times nearing to the great change in the whole Creation. That’s why we need to go back to the basics and read this: Amos 1:6-7 KJV
[6] Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom: [7] but I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:
And also this: Isaiah 45:7 KJV
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Time of the God’s vengeance has come and is playing in front of our eyes. But those overstepping God’s intentions will have to give an account before the God’s court not the world’s court.
What about leaving “God” out of this, any “God”?
So the writer makes bracketed comments about Israel’s arguments and disproves any facts deemed unfavorable to the South African team. The writer doesn’t do the same about Hamas. For example, the statistics about the death toll are taken hook, line and sinker. What a contradiction!
As usual the Chamas propaganda goes halfway around the world before the Israeli truth is getting its boots on, but thankfully the Almighty God of Israel is the MASSIVE UNEQUALING FACTOR in this equation. He will see that justice for Israel is done, even if the entire world turns against them. מעין
And judges in that court comes from China, Somalia, Lebanon, ZImbabwe and and, who are all countries who has been proved of not being democratic and recent evidence of gross human violations. I agree with Chief Rabbi Goldstein of Sout African. This is no court that represents true justice.
The war in Gaza is most unfortunate but to suggest it is genocide is frivilous to say the least. South Africa have politicised it with a view to the forthcoming election. However Israel will never to able to completely destroy Hamas so continuing the War is probably fruitless. Hams should return all the hostages in return for an end to hostilities.
Ms Haffejee, you report that “By 11 January, 23 357 Palestinians had been killed with more than 17000 women and children among them.” Have these figures been “independently verified” as you require of the Israeli stated facts…. because it is common knowledge that these figures you mention are supplied by the Gaza Health Ministry which is run by Hamas! Not really an independent nor reliable source, would you not agree???
….that’s the point …Israel will allow NO ONE into Gaza. No UN observers, no UNICEF, no independent observers or any aid whatsoever. Remember Gaza is a large concentration camp and like the Nazi version there is no such thing as independent observers. Even Staunch supporters of Israel….Germany, Canada and most of western Europe….would no doubt be horrified by the decimation of Gaza. It is worse than Dresden. From what I have seen I would think that 23,000 dead would be an understatement. The damage to Gaza society : immeasurable.
Can Hamas be trusted to tell the truth.
What is there track record of human rights and there treatment of the people of Palestine but anyway that doesn’t matter now because they have an ally that is South Africa determined to fight for it and convincing the world of their innocence and their rights and never mind Oct7 and the hostages that are still not saved.
I can but echo the comment below: Ferial Haffajee, Use your brain, not your emotions – if some extreme group in SA kills thousands of you family only because they hate them, will you retaliate? Surely not, because they might be poor disadvantaged people. Chopping up babies, dragging people behind motor cycles for km’s, raping girls until pelvis is broken…..ag please man? .We will wipe them out. Only when Hamas learns to love their own children more than they HATE the Jews, will peace will come. Hatred is a devilish driving force.
Well, your comment above refers. Apart from nonsense as stated, without even the slightest evidence, the case is against the Israeli Government (brought by the SA Government), where the word hate for Palestinians far exceed any which was patently described by their array of lawyers in the case heard yesterday at the World Court
hi coen you should take some time and watch the unbiased news and footage out there. i can gladly help yoi out if you’re struggling to find anything on aljazeera and cnn
A few points I would make in this debate.
First, only a Zionist troll would want to start a debate as to whether it is possible to count the exact number of Palestinians killed by IDF action in Gaza. In a sense, the exact number is not important; what we do know is that far too many women and children (in particular) have been killed.
Second, those citing the Israeli argument that South Africa failed to properly declare a dispute with Israel before approaching the ICJ, are simply repeating an argument which will be taken into consideration by the ICJ. At this stage it is argument, not legal fact. For what it is worth, I would submit that South Africa was not obliged to engage in a series of time-wasting meetings with Israel, given a) the urgency of the matter and b) that Israel’s position and strategy with respect to its conduct of the war on Gasa was well known. One has only to listen to Gilad Erdan’s shameful and unprofessional attack of the UN Secretary General on 24th October, as well as his subsequent speeches to the UNSC and UNGA to know that Israel’s position was entrenched, and that no exchange of views would have borne any fruit.
Third, the Israeli reply to South Africa’s case was thankfully free of bombast. However, listening to a narrative that claimed that the IDF was moral and caring about avoiding unnecessary civilian casualties painted an alternative reality, not borne out by facts on the ground. One thing that we do know about the IDF is that it has the capability to launch high-precision strikes on targets. This has been demonstrated just recently with the assassination of Hamas and Hezbollah ‘targets’. It may also demonstrate a change in strategy by the IDF as world opinion shifts against Israeli conduct. When one factors this Israeli capacity into account, one has to accept that the analysis of Al Jazeera’s Marwan Bishwara is probably accurate. To paraphrase, he has remarked that “This is not a war against Hamas where the people of Gaza are collateral damage, it is a war on the people of Gaza, where Hamas is the collateral damage”.
Fourth, looking to ‘the day after’ it is hard to see a peaceful solution without a radical mind-shift by the Israelis and concessions by Palestinian resistance groups. One possibility is the two-state solution based on pre 1967 borders, withdrawal of Israeli settlements from Palestinian territory and the transfer of infrastructure (undamaged) to the Palestinian State as well as reparations for damage inflicted on Gaza. The second is a unitary state where all within it enjoy equal rights, where the Defence Force and Police are fully integrated and where the unqualified right of Jewish immigration is balanced by the right to return by those affected by the 1948 Nakba.
Mr. Van Uytrecht, in all my years as a follower of local and international news as a subscriber to many Newspapers and non-social media News outlets, this is one of the best comments I have ever read in my entire life. Wish I have had the skills in writing as you. Ps. Agree with every single sentiment described
Glad that you found it useful Mr Gous.
Well written… I agree with almost everything stated.
Why is it so much worse killing women and children? Are women worthier than men? Difficult not to kill children, they are all over the place and the male children are often behaving much worse than grown up men.
From the CNN: “The research company, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR), has just published the findings of its latest survey into Palestinian attitudes.
Seven hundred and fifty adults were interviewed face to face in the West Bank, and 481 were interviewed in Gaza, also in person. The Gaza data collection was done during the recent truce, when it was safer for researchers to move about.
The survey, which has a four-point margin of error (rather than the usual three-point), found that almost three-quarters (72%) of all respondents believe Hamas’s decision to launch its attack on Israel on October 7 was “correct.”
Less than a quarter (22%) said it was “incorrect.”
CNN is an American based TV station, who together with many other US TV stations, are almost certainly biased, as their viewership, and advertising, is dependent on the word Money. Their research, if true, is certainly not statistically valid and would rather accept the UN’s findings. The Mighty US of A is no innocent when it comes to war crimes. But they publicly stated that they support the Israel, together with the UK, and more recent Germany, all countries from the west. Germany in particular is of interest, considering their own atrocities. Just wonder why? Perhaps there are deeper reasons? Money?
Ms Scalabrinic, could you inform us where one can find this research? Also, was there a qualifying question, namely: “Why do you say that?” CNN is not a a recognised research company, like Nielson.
CNN only quotes “The research company, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research”.
I googled “How many Palestinians voted for Hamas”
Will check it out, thanks. But truly find this research suspecious, as well as the supposed company that did it
Excellent summation of the situation pertaining in Israel/Palestine. My only point on which I slightly differ is that the two-state solution is almost certainly dead in the water. The ongoing establishment of settlements in the West Bank, under Benjamin Netanyahu, has well and truly put paid to that. To expect the settlers to withdraw, as happened in Gaza in 2005 under Ariel Sharon, is now simply unrealistic.
In any event, the 1993 two-state solution agreed at the Oslo Accords, as endorsed at the time by the USA, was never more than the establishment of yet another Bantustan, as was tried and failed under Apartheid – the dreaded A-word. The Israeli government in any event has made it abundantly clear in recent time that they never had any intention to implement it. A unitary democratic state is only the long term solution, as hard as this may be for some of the belligerents to swallow.
I had hoped that perhaps that Yair Lapid might be big enough a man to drive such a move, but he seems little better than the rest. Israel clearly for the present has no Nelson Mandelas or FW de Klerks, and is still locked in its persecuted past.
The UN is so patently biased against Israel that it uses Gaza’s figures as accurate but not Israel’s. It’s really a useless, ineffective organisation that has no bite and has lost its relevance.
The UN has many shortcomings, but it’s the only thing that we have as an international normative law formation institution. If UN officials and employees seem biased, I would suggest that it is because they are often operating on the ground and see first-hand the realities of a particular situation. But let’s put this in context – Israel for years, has acted in total contempt for various Security Council resolutions, knowing that it has the backing of the US to veto any concrete steps requiring it to comply with those resolutions.
it’s a pity that SA’s case is one of “genocide” as opposed to “war crimes”. israel clearly had a “cause for war” and openly declared war against hamas. technically a genocide is unprovoked.
No, you are not correct. There is no requirement either in the everyday or legal sense for genocide to be unprovoked.
Every part of Apartheid Israel’s argument mentions Hamas. What Hamas did (which was abhorrent) has nothing to do with the IDF killing 25 000+ innocent people. Their arguments are baseless with very weak reasoning
“innocent people”. Certainly not all of them!
How many are not innocent amongst the 23700?
Hahahahaha
Israel response is predictable. Their argument that they did not want the war simply defies logic. But they are powerful nation economically, and
history is on their side. The annihilation of Gaza and Palestinie continues unabated in front of world eyes, and nothing will stop it.
Myopic strategy that will have far reaching consequences
Has anyone considered who is paying for South Africa’s appeal to the ICJ? I have been told (no supporting evidence I should add) that the cost of the appeal and the expense of putting together and sending this delegation to the Hague is somewhere around R100 million. Such a figure would not surprise me, these legal actions tend to be hideously costly. I doubt that the SA tax payer would be happy for their hard earned money to be spent in this way when there is so much that needs to be put right at home and I also doubt that the ANC has such an amount of funds to spare. It is election year and the ANC badly needs money. Has anyone considered that the likes of Iran ( main supporter of Hamas and the major player in destabilising the Middle East) and/or Russia (very keen to distract the West from what is going on in Ukraine) may well have put up the money and persuaded South Africa, a minor player in world politics to initiate this legal action? The ANC have very openly declared that their loyalties lie with Russia and not the West. Their love for money is no secret and they will need all they can get in this election year.
Was that your comment? Find it extremely one-sided. So you and others like you that death of innocent civilians must continue because SA Taxpayers (I am one) would not be happy? This has nothing to do with Russia, or the ANC experience financial problems for that matter. Love your money sir, to me you sound like a typical White supremist missing the apartheid days
Close your eyes for a moment : imagine 150 South African citizens were kidnapped and unlawfully held in Zimbabwe. We need not throw into the mix whether or not they are held by a group declared a terrorist organisation. We also need not debate whether or not these hostages are being raped murdered starved or abused. In this scenario what would the reaction of every citizen be? ( I do not ask what our government would do, the probable answer is quite frightening) imagine we do the right thing by our citizens and attempt to rescue them and in so doing innocent Zimbabweans got killed and maimed? Would we as citizens say that we must just leave our unlawfully kidnapped and held hostages there to rot? Imagine the Mauritian government now went to the ICJ and obtained an order that we stop trying to rescue our people. If it was your brother or sister, parent or child would you stop? If it was a citizen not even a relative would you stand down? Again we do not need to debate how the captives are being treated. I believe our government would have a duty to continue trying to rescue such hostages. Surely the most sensible solution to the carnage would be to release the hostages ? Any order which does not protect the hostages and their rights and does not address the rights of the citizens of both sides would be untenable and would quite reasonably be ignored. As an aside I believe that the five hundred or so million rand that is being spent on this case to the ICJ would be better spent feeding and caring for the people who are starving to death in this country. ( No that is not a fiction . Recently a woman in the Eastern Cape murdered her children and killed herself because she could no longer watch them starving to dearth. There were many follow up articles about how hundreds of people in the Eastern Cape where similarly starving to death. I think we need to worry abou our brothers and sisters and fix our crumbling house before we go running off as the saviour of the world. Allowing your citizens to starve to death and depriving them of other basic human rights whilst running around to save the world is quite frankly ridiculous.
Adam
amen brother!!! you couldn’t have said it better!!!
We would release some prisoners in exchange for all our hostages in Zimbabwe. They’d be released in a week, peace restored. Israel chose to rather spend 100 days trying to wipe out the Palestinians.
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The deaths incurred in this entire incident are really shocking. None of them would have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel without any warning or specific reason. They planned this and the subsequent inevitable Israeli response.
In terms of the headline to this article, if the judges in this matter were to ‘throw out’ the matter on a technicality … rather than the substance of the issue … they would be guilty of doing the administration of justice … a grave disservice.
It is unfortunate that Haffajee was incapable of reporting on Israel’s response to South Africa’s charges without revealing her personal bias.
To say that 23k Palestinians have died without mentioning that about 8,000 were Hamas combatants suggests that the war is against the Palestinian people.
The truth is that a 2:1 ratio of civilians to combatants is low relative to most modern wars.
Haffajee’s calling Israel’s evidence of Hamas using hospital infrastructure as “Never independently verified,” but quoting Hamas’s figures as the gospel also show her bias. (Would she suggest that Hamas would not or has not done such a thing,)
Haffajee’s one sided reporting shows the same curated and inaccurate approach as South Africa’s representatives did at the ICJ.
What she seems not to get is that the implication of her embellishment is that without it, the argument made by Israel would win.
Sir, you can say what you want, but find your words like incapable, one sided. curated, inaccurate, embellishment rather unfortunate, and in the context of this article, blatant insulting
Israel said it had killed 8500 terrorists in Gaza and 1000 in Israel on Oct7th. We also know that a missed fired rocket by the IPJ killed 500 in the ground of a mosque.
Hamas does not distinguish between civilians and terrorists killed, even some of their
teenagers were classed as children. They are the worst type of liars trying to fool all that that they are victims and Israelis are agressors.
How many civilian casualties were suffered by all sides in the Second World War, in Vietnam, the invasions of Afghanistan by both Russia and the USA, Iraq, Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine, and every regional and local conflict in between? War is bloody and dirty. Innocent people die. Children die, babies die. Certainly Israeli civilians, children and babies died when the Hamas terrorists invaded. Undoubtedly and inevitably greater numbers of Palestinian civilians, children and babies have died since. The propaganda from both sides cannot obfuscate the reality and arguments about numbers are pointless. I do find it jaw droppingly staggering that a country like South Africa that cannot adequately feed, house, provide utilities to or protect its own people from violent crime or the rampant corruption and criminality of its political leaders can still claim the moral high ground in relation to any other country. This legal action against Israel is a political stunt, doomed to fail and a further waste of resources that should be more appropriately directed to compel South Africa’s political leadership to address their own moral and political failures.
As a South African of 93 years, I have inevitably lived to see many wicked/foolish acts committed by a SA government. I haven’t witnessed any of such acts equalling my disapproval/disgust as the vast SA “legal” team presently performs at The Hague, before what is mistakenlydesignated as an International Criminal Court of “Justice”. My reasons: 1] Israel is busy committing a legitimate act of war 2] The war is waged by Israel against an evil terrorist body in the form of Hamas, the only one which could rightly be convicted of striving for genocide of the Jews; 3] The Court, before which Israel is bound to appear, is a disreputable body set up by the United Nations, which itself has for almost its entire life earned little or no record of achieving justice and peace in the world, and 4] Worst of all, that such is the composition of the relevant court, the judgement of the court will be likely to find in favour of the government of our country, which itself has demonstrated time and time again to be that is has been riddled with corruption, misdeeds and incompetence. Long retired Acting Judge Andrew Lang S.C.
There is no doubt that the bloodshed needs to be stopped in Palestine. I support that, but to think that we understand the conflict that has been Israel/Palestine for more than 70 years is naive. Ever since I can remember it has been a cycle of attack and retaliation and that has been going around and around. Something has to be done vastly differently to stop that. Taking hostages, raping, torturing and murdering on both sides is unacceptable. What I do find rather peculiar is that South Africa decides to point fingers at Israel with an accusation of genocide. Last I checked, thousands of farmers have systematically been killed INSIDE South Africa’s borders since 1994. Just because South Africa is not in an official “war” doesn’t make that any less of a genocide by the very definition of the word. How about we first get our own house in order by actually dealing with the rampant violent crime within South Africa before going about grand-standing on the world stage? Our very own majority political parties are singing songs like “Kill the Boer” and “Bring me my machine (gun)”, which are then conventiently not classed as hate speech. How blatantly arrogant and denialist can it get?
Get your own house in order before you dare to go pointing fingers at others.
Hamas’ avowed intent is the total destruction of the State of Israel. If that is not reason to dismiss South Africa’s mendacious court action, then the law is an Ass. The brutality of the Hamas attack on the 7th October beggars belief – that was definitely a precursor to genocide. They are a genocidal terrorist organisation pure and simple.
A few comments from my side….an entity (whether a terrorist organization or sovereign state does not matter) commit barbaric acts against the population of a nearby state after being repeatedly warned that there will be consequences. This entity then chose to use their own civilians to be their human shield against retaliation actions of the nearby sovereign state. They also continue to fire missiles at the general population of the nearby state. The nearby state decide that enough is enough and the best option of retaliation is to go for the total annihilation of the entity (mentioned in my first sentence). In the process thousands of civilians are being killed either directly or indirectly (starvation, lack of medical care etc.). There are definitely two parties in the wrong here albeit for different reasons. If the rest of the world wants to intervene to stop the killing of civilians in both countries they need to force both parties in this battle to stop (Israel and Hamas…representing Palestine). Whether this can be enforced is impossible to say. Trying to force the hand of just one side is a waste of time. Now is the time for high level mediation but it seems nobody (so far) has shown an appetite for this. The rest of the world (including our government) should be ashamed that they turned to choosing sides rather than try to solve this conflict. In the process more and more division is caused (just read through the comments on this article) and what do we achieve with this attitude?
Secondly it is saddening to see the lack of common sense and decency displayed in the arguments by so many commenting on this article. Using expletives to argue a case or to call people names will never contribute to positive debate. If you disagree with someone tell them you disagree and the reasons for your opinion. Adult debate is there to try and persuade people that your opinion is the most valid one by using common sense, logic and facts and not by swearing and deliberately offending/insulting other parties. Just my 2 cents…..
It’s a relief to hear what Israel has to say . In its defence and response…as with everything that has happened in these past 100 plus days has been, in defence of itself ..The behaviour, murder ,rape and the war itself started by the very Hamas that Palestinians voted in themselves ..to govern and shows the obvious hatred that the Arab( always ) has
had toward the Jews .. if only someone would open a Bible or a secular history book of the ancient and more modern history of the Jewish people . But ……. This is all a thoroughly spiritual battle ,and always has been ….One filled with hatred toward another …
Good to read the sense heard from the defence given by the Israeli lawyers ..Again … defending itself for something they did not want in the first place …attack !!!