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Obtaining a spousal visa for foreign spouses of SA citizens is at best an obstacle course on a time-eating road

Obtaining a spousal visa for foreign spouses of SA citizens is at best an obstacle course on a time-eating road
Illustrative image: (Rawpixel | Gallo Images/Foto24 | Gallo Images / Fani Mahuntsi)

It can take a mere two months to obtain a spousal visa if the foreign spouse of a South African citizen applies from outside the country. However, if they apply from inside South Africa it becomes a waiting game and they cannot leave until the process has been completed.

According to Xpatweb, processing time for a South African spouse visa takes “four to eight weeks (depending on the country of submission)”. 

But, what if you are the foreign spouse of a South African citizen wanting to obtain a spousal visa from inside South Africa? Daily Maverick was contacted by a reader having a hard time getting a straight answer, or in fact any answer, on the status of their visa application, about four months into their application process.

Dealing with South Africa’s Department of Home Affairs (DHA) – infamous for its reputation for long queues, unhelpful staff and long waiting times and erroneous refusals of all kinds of paperwork much needed by citizens and visitors alike in the course of going about their daily lives – is almost always time consuming and very often expensive, in one way or another.

If one looks at the DHA website it appears that a foreigner married to a South African citizen does not have to jump through too many hoops to gain a spousal visa or even temporary residency. However, there are waiting periods and lots of frustration and information gaps along the way – some on the side of the applicants but more often, it would appear, on the side of the processing Home Affairs officials.

It will be really tough for me to be unable to leave the country if something should happen to my parents.

Attorney Gary Eisenberg of Eisenberg & Associates explains that it is important to be clear on what type of visa you are applying for:

“The Immigration Act contemplates two types of ‘spousal visas’ – a relative visa (section 8 of the act) which is granted for two years and does not allow the holder to work or study. The other type is the so-called section 11(6) visitor visa which is issued for two to three years and allows the visa holder to work or study.”

Eisenberg goes on to explain that the law around both of these visas has not changed since 2014, but did undergo a not insignificant “update” in 2019:

“When the law was first introduced in 2014, spouses holding tourist visas had to return to their countries of origin to apply for their ‘spousal’ visas. Only as a consequence of the Constitutional Court’s judgment in Nandutu in July 2019 (in which I was the attorney of record) was the DHA forced to enable spouses to apply within South Africa.”

He confirms that spousal visas could then be applied for from within the country since 2019. However, if applied for while in South Africa, the applicant cannot leave before the application process has been finalised.

A Daily Maverick insider, who wanted to remain anonymous, says they were shocked to be told by their immigration consultant, only after they had already submitted their visa application from inside South Africa, that they could not leave until the process had been completed – which could be a year or more:

“I wish I had known that before I submitted the application. It will be really tough for me to be unable to leave the country if something should happen to my parents. It’s not a good feeling that if something did happen to family in England, to not be able to go back. And Christmas plans are now obviously not going to happen.”

The insider, a British citizen who works in education, has been in a relationship with a South African for a number of years and had always planned to settle in South Africa:

“I have to stay as I am relocating to SA and I would like to work here and pay taxes here.”

Starting the process of looking into how to apply for and obtain a visa, it had at first appeared that the applicant might be able to apply and still leave the country while the application was in the process. However, after submitting in July this year, and despite having looked at a lot of “sources of information”, they discovered that it would not be possible to leave until the application process had been completed.

In fact, a DHA directive had been in place for a short period, which allowed people who had applied from inside the country before the end of March 2023 to be able to leave on condition that they could show their receipt for their handed-in application. The insider’s application was a few months too late for this directive to apply.

While the cost of the application is also stated as a one-off of R1,550, once attorneys and consultants are involved that one-off is joined by other costs.

spousal visa

Chart: Supplied

There is also a number of documents involved: marriage certificate, proof of spouses’ South African citizenship or residency, a medical report, an unabridged birth certificate, radiology reports unless the applicant is a pregnant woman or child under the age of 12 years, a police clearance certificate from your home country and all other countries you have lived in for more than 12 months as an adult, and a letter of support from your spouse – to name a few

But as Eisenberg notes, it is best to be on the lookout for new directives from the DHA. In May 2023, a directive noted that:

  • The radiology report requirement had been dropped; and
  • Instead of needing police clearance certificates for all the countries the applicant had lived in for more than 12 months, they only needed to supply police certificates from countries they had lived in for the five years before their application.

Read the directive here.

While the DHA website points to an efficient organisation that even has WhatsApp numbers and a section on how to complain and where, getting someone to answer the WhatsApp number is a struggle most days. Then, when they do pick up, the system is often offline, which they quickly add “is a national problem” which is possibly meant to make the caller feel better but definitely has exactly the opposite effect.

Also, calling or emailing the DHA (they have an office or department called Counter Corruption & Security Services and encourage people to call, email or speak to any DHA office manager directly) to complain about the DHA does not seem like it would encourage people to call – what happens to the documents being processed while the complaint is processed, seems a fair question in light of concerns about corruption at the DHA.

Read more in Daily Maverick: Hell Affairs

At least one source told the Daily Maverick that they have proof of corruption and corrupt officials at the DHA, but would rather speak to the media than the DHA, feeling they have a better chance of getting results complaining about the DHA outside the organisation than inside it.

They may be right about having a better reaction from the DHA to external pressures rather than internal ones. This seems to be the case when the DA lodged a complaint with the Public Protector against the DHA earlier this year.

On 7 July DA MP Angel Khanyile announced:

“The DA has today lodged an official complaint with the Public Protector, Advocate Kholeka Gcaleka, requesting that she investigates the continued failure by the Department of Home Affairs (DHA) to issue Smart ID cards to naturalised South African citizens.”

When Daily Maverick followed up with Khanyile this week, she told us that while they were still awaiting feedback from the Public Protector:

“During the Portfolio Committee meeting on 10 October 2023, the DG, Mr Makhode, advised that he had been instructed by the Minister to implement the processing of Smart ID cards for naturalised citizens with immediate effect.”

Khanyile added that they would “monitor the matter very closely”.

The DHA was approached for comment but did not respond by time of publication.

The Daily Maverick insider waiting for their visa application process to be completed hopes it does not take a year (or more) and offers some advice to other spouses of South African citizens who want to apply for their spousal visa:

“The advice I wish I had been given was to extend my tourist visa and go home and apply from there.” DM


Comments - Please in order to comment.

  • My spouse applied for a renewal of their spousal visa (with a work exemption) in June 2022. We are still waiting. Any enquiry with DHA normally ends with “it is not yet processed”. We are part of the backlog that happened when DHA centralised all long-term visa applications in Pretoria. Apparently the backlog has grown from 45000 in December 2022 to 74000 in September 2023.

    • GB Miskin says:

      My wife waited for four years for a permanent residence permit, and many months for a spousal Visa with a work endorsement. She’s lived here for 13 years and we’ve been married for 9. She got a job offer which was going to expire because DHA couldn’t get their act together. We eventually used immigration attorneys to go to court and get orders compelling DHA to provide the documents. We now have them all. It is unfortunately the only option.

      • Ludovici DIVES says:

        My wife follow the same attorney process and received her residency after three years. Sadly this is the fastest option but tragic for applicants that cannot afford the process

  • Retha McManus says:

    This is completely unacceptable holding people hostage because you are incapable of doing basic administration! And what about the permanent applications, we applied for my husband November ‘19, by the time they look at it all the documents, bank statements etc are not valid anymore. Goodness the dha is a piece of work!!

  • Bheki Sibbs says:

    Applied for permanent Residence in 2019 and when l track it still says received in 2019 , when l phone they it’s still not processed

  • Ian Rose says:

    As a naturalised citizen I can only apply for a green bar coded ID. I’ve now been informed that to get it I must travel to SWELLENDAM because PAARL (where I am resident) “doesn’t issue green IDs anymore”. It’s worse than you report.

  • Safiyah Cox says:

    At last some exposure of the mammoth ineptitude of this government department. Please continue to investigate and bring pressure to bear on a failed system which impacts directly and devastatingly on good peoples lives. Bad people exchange hundreds of thousands of rands for visas so if you want to go the legal route, you wait. For us it’s been several years to date. It’s soul destroying living in limbo.

  • I applied for a spouses Visa in September 2022.They tell me its not yet finalized when I phone them. Its really useless to complain from the inside cause they give the same excuse of backlog. I doubt that my application is even getting attention like they say.

  • I don’t actually understand where some of the facts in this article come from. From our experience they aren’t correct. Most notably we were able to apply for a spousal visa in South Africa, in May of 2016 already. Also the waiting times are completely understated. We have been waiting for her permanent residency since May 2016. Seven and a half years! In that time we have had to renew her temporary residence 3 times and we still haven’t received her latest visa almost two years later. Its astounding.

  • I submitted my application for spousal visa at VFS Global on August 22nd 2022! Still no further information available from VFS – when I track application on its website, the message I was sent on same day Aug 22nd 2022 to confirm my application had been received at Home Affairs Pretoria is only information available. Impossible to gain any information regarding the status of my application from Home Affairs. Believe me I’ve tried. You can’t physically speak to anyone for a start. Have had one email response simply attaching the general status of visa processing times etc (two year backlog it would seem). Nothing on my specific case. Would be very interested to find out if anybody else is still waiting for visa outcome 15 months down the line?!!! Really wished I’d flown home to UK to process. Did not realize the process was completed within the timeline it is supposed to be here (6-8 weeks) if applied for from abroad. The situation is causing so much stress for my husband and I. Absolutely appalling ‘service’ from Home Affairs.

    • Elisabeth Baltussen says:

      I have been waiting for 19 months for my spousal visa with business endorsement. You are definitely not alone. The only time you get to speak to anyone from DHA is when they ask you for a bribe. Believe me – I received that phone call in July this year.

  • jason du toit says:

    at least applying for a passport or ID card is a quick and painless process as a south african citizen. paperwork and payment online, a shortish two to three hour queue or an appointment at your bank for biometrics, and a two to four week wait for the passport/card, with a separate collection queue.

    my experience of HA employees has been nothing but pleasant: good people working in a tough environment yet still having smiles and friendlinesses.

  • Cape Town Based says:

    The situation is even worse than depicted here. We’ve been waiting since April 2022 for a 2-year spousal visa. While waiting we are stuck in limbo, unable to plan our future, and getting increasingly anxious each time the concession deadline looms. So far, they keep extending the concession, but only give us one days notice. If it is not extended again in December, our lives will be plunged into turmoil. Absolutely criminal.

    It’s not straightforward to apply from overseas. This requires the applicant to give up their passport, find a place to live, and be separated from their partner and any children. My friend applied for a skills visa from overseas and Home Affairs kept his passport for 11 months, leaving him unable to travel or work.

  • Being a South African citizen married to a foreigner I’ve been waiting (now an expectant mother) for almost a year for the DHA to issue my husband a Visa.
    Unfortunately one is forced to resort to alternate methods to obtain a Visa, which can be quite a difficult and costly. The DHA is making lives miserable.

  • My husband’s application is sitting at Home Affairs as of the 5th July 2022. He is Egyptian and his passport expires next year. I tried to get legal advice which means instituting legal action against DHA but we need to file the application at the High Court money which I don’t have. I have communicated with Home Affairs regarding this application on several occasions and it’s really appalling but each time I am given the same response. I feel for everyone going through this situation right now. The Minister is trying his best to address the situation but majority of people working in government don’t work. If they worked like how people in the private sector worked then you will see how fast those applications will be finalized. The Minister has requested the President to assist with further support to finalize these applications so all we got to do is sit tight and wait. It looks like a long wait. Fingers crossed.

  • Martin Smith says:

    Been waiting since April 2022 for renewal of 4 year Retired Person visa. So far previous visa has been extended several times so I can travel if I show my VFS receipt at passport control. Next deadline is 31st December. Last deadline expired in March and was only extended on the last day leaving us wondering if we should leave the country to avoid becoming illegal. Crazy. New Year’s Eve should be extra fun this time.

  • Dear DM
    As you can see and just looking at the comments, there are thousands of us in terrible stressful situations our families are under pressure and our live hoods, because of these `the application has not been processed yet` scenario. Thousands of people have been employed to accelerate the applications in the mean time at the DHA. We applied last year November and now its one year later and the applicant, my husband must travel with a till slip through customs, that is all we have as proof we have applied.
    Can we write a petition to the Public Protector, can we ask you as DM to lead and help us to collectively complain of all of our loved one`s applications which are Not Being Processed – in my case its the 4th time we had to apply for a Temp Res Permit – very straightforward we are married since many years and even with a strait forward application there is NO PROGRESS. We still have to struggle then with the permanent visa and the fact is, it will take years unless things change dramatically. Its like its on purpose, is it or, isn’t it? And one can not dare complain as you could imagine it could affect your application?
    How does one take it from here, not all can afford lawsuits and drag them to court to get our lives sorted out. We are here to progress and create jobs, we invest and we spend, why is it so hectic to at least in return award the correct visas for the foreigners that tick all the boxes and contribute to the economy, so they can feel that all the financial input will pay off and they may stay and make South Africa a better place?

  • w d says:

    I applied to renew my 11(6) in October 2022 and I’m still waiting.

  • I am a South African and my wife is Zimbabwean,she has been here on a spousel visa,6 years ago we applied for permanent residency and we are still waiting,we have had to apply for spousel visa thrice in that period and it cost a lot to do it all the time
    Everytime I contact DHA I am being told that it it is still at the adjudicator waiting for sign off and that they will escalate it for me which is very frustrating

  • John White says:

    I am South African, my wife is from Botswana, we have been married since 2009 and we reside in South Africa. We were told after 5 years of marriage my wife could apply for permanent residence, PRP application that was handed in on the 18.11.2016, to this date, there is no permanent residence permit and there has been no update, we email no one replies. We have been applying for 2 years spousal renewable permit since marriage, it takes up to 2years after submission to renew permit, no sooner to you get a permit, you have to submit for renewal again, we submitted for renewal in 2022, the application was confirmed for 27/05/2022, permit expired in August 2022, to this date there is no visa. We have a 9 year old son who was born in South Africa and schools in South Africa, we are scared to travel in case my wife isn’t allowed back.

  • I am the spouse of the holder of a special skills shortage visa. I applied for an extension to my family visa (which does not give me the right to work or study) in May 2022. No word on any progress. The minister for home affairs has stated publicly that family visas are not a priority as we are all here to steal jobs from South Africans. Not only is this incorrect, but its also illegal.

    We are leaving this country and taking our money and taxes with us. Cheers.

  • T Maritz says:

    We’ve been waiting 6 years now for my souse’s permanent residence application and DHA keeps on telling us that they have this “backlog”. A backlog should be something that you sort out in a few months, not something which has been an issue long before Covid even started.
    We keep on having to apply for temporary residence permits (at R1550 per shot) and because our last one expired last month we now need to leave the country every 3 months and enter with a tourist visa until we receive the temporary again. The temporary residence permit applications used to be reasonably fast, but I believe this now also takes more than a year.
    A really stressful situation. 6 years and waiting is a long time and every day has an impact on our way of living here. Not only us but the 10’s and thousand of other applicants too. It is as if the government does not really care about foreigners because the foreigners cannot vote yet (for the government) anyway.

  • I was in the same situation, my husband and I decided that I must go back home to apply for the spousal visa and this time to include my daughter’s. We did wait for 7 months to get an outcome even if they denied my daughter application we are still waiting hoping that it will be positif this time. Almost one year without seeing her and none to assist us.

  • Anne Felgate says:

    DHA is not a luxury, it is a fundamental need

  • Richard South coast says:

    I have applied for 3 relitives/spousal visa’a for my wife out side of SA in 2 diferent countries and these were fairly straight forward as long as your paperwork is in order, I received rhe visa’s within approx 14 days. Once covid was over we applied for PRP in SA and then a renewal of her existing spousal visa. The renewal took approx 18 months, we are now waiting for another renewal as the PRP I was told by VFS will take a minimum of 3 years. What adds frustration to this is the fact that ALL the paperwork has to be submitted every time and all the biometrics done every time, what do they do with all this paper and why are the biometrics not on a central system. I too have the problem of very elderly parents and family that need to be visited and concerened about the consequence of travel. Seems like SA is simmilar to most countries in Europe these days where arriving illegaly is a much easier option.

  • sylvianah matotie says:

    Huuuuuuu!!! Tell me how frustrating it is to be a non South African I’m this country, my husband applied for his visa renewal since May 2022 via VFS….. Having to track online, response has been “Received at DHA since the 19th May 2022 until date. ”

    It is so sad that non South Africans, contributes to this stinky economy and revenues by ensuring that they play their part in paying taxes, but when they need to be granted VISA’s they are no longer considered as a part of this country. It’s a shame.

    • sylvianah matotie says:

      To add, we are forced to leave on one salary with all the expenses.

      • Am on spouse visa but a submitted in November 2022 up until now it shows that it was received at dha Lwanga says:

        Am on a spouse visa . I submitted for extention last year 2022 November but when ever I truck it .shows that it was recieved at the dha

  • Hi – Can anyone recommend a lawyer to force DHA into a permit review? I am a Canadian, living in South Africa since 2010 and married to a South African since 2012. I’ve lived in SA on a study permit, work permit and now a spousal permit and have seen the DHA fall apart over this time. My Permanent Residency permit was submitted in Jan 2020 and is still in ‘processing’. Our lives are here, my kids are South African attending SA schools, we pay tax, own a home, but my life is in limbo… Any recommendations would be appreciated.

  • Maxiphem Oluwafemi says:

    I hold a permanent resident status, and we applied for spousal visa 11(6) for my wife 2021 December, result came in February 2023, and was rejected stating we fail to put letter of admission or employment offer. Then she was awaiting her admission letter, and now in February of 2023, she already has her phd admission letter. And now applied first week in March of 2023. We are still waiting since. Same goes to my son, we applied when he was a year old in December of 2022, every time we track online it’s same story of being received and when we go further to call the DHA, the line is even more busy than ever. And same story of what we track online is what they tell us. My biggest concern is traveling out, I’ve heard if one can have receipts and have applied before end of March 2023, that one can travel and come back with the receipt, i still wish to know how authentic is this information, please anybody who has a fine print on this can pls share. Thanks.

  • Reg Mushavhi says:

    My wife submitted a spousal visa renewal application on November 2021, we are still waiting for the Department of Hell Affairs to come back to us

  • rorimachete says:

    The incompetence of the DHA never ceases to amaze me. It is just absolutely astounding. Reading about the experiences of so many others that exactly resembles what my husband and I are going through makes my blood boil. We sent in my husband’s visa application to vfs in June 2022 and have been waiting ever since. All follow ups through all channels have come to naught, we don’t even get a response most of the time. We’ve now resorted to taking legal action by getting a court order against the DHA but we were told that even that is likely to take around 6 months before it’s seen by a judge. This whole process has drained us financially and emotionally, my husband can’t work while we are forced to live in limbo. Something must be done about this.

  • We have the same problem I am a South African who married a Mozambican for over 12 years now we dated in 2005 in 2006 we got a son who’s now 17 years old. We applied for PRP in 2018 still waiting up to this day,then my husband work permit expired in 2021 which we applied for renewal still waiting now the biggest challenge is my husband can’t work 😢 and I was retrenched before covid we can’t get any attorneys to help us dye to finances. Been waiting for the work permit so that we can claim the UIF money for the 18 years my husband worked for one of the companies💔as I’m typing this we are really depressed our son is doing grade 12 how do we even apply for Varsity with no income?? what happens when something happens to my husband God forbid. We are really really desperate we tried calling and sending emails to no avail.

  • A lot of immigrants that applied under above category cannot leave the country and come back whilst awaiting their outcome. A lot of these people under section 11.6 travels in and out for business. Mainly their income to support their spouses and children. So as they say, no work no pay. How does the DHA expect these applicants to support their families if they cannot travel? Business in buying and selling. Visit family and introducing grandchildren to foreign grandparents.
    Buy not getting the outcome in reasonable time can led to crime or paying people inside to get the visas done.
    My opinion is that their is not enough training or support from the seniors or too much work.

    • Kgomotso Fosu says:

      My foreign husband applied for his permanent residency since 2018,and the 4th renewal of his spousal permit. We’ve had 3 kids and lost one in between this period, but yet, no reply from Dha. What a world.

  • It took us two years waiting for the reply from the department, and when it came back they said the police clearance had expired, I mean is that our fault? We submitted everything up to date but the delay in their system caused the certificates to lapse and that was the reason for refusal.

  • Akhona Ggy says:

    I have been married to my wife a South African Citizen for 11 years now. I am waiting for a my spousal permit since July 2022. I still shows that it was submitted to DHA in July 2022. I am the breadwinner for my family. I cannot get a job as all jobs opportunities require me to produce the permit. I now leave by handouts and begging to be able to provide for my children. Its a very bad experience.

  • Elisabeth Baltussen says:

    This is identical to my story. I applied for my spousal visa with business endorsement in May 2022 within South Africa, whilst being here on a tourist visa. I haven’t heard from DHA since. It has been 18 months. The DHA directive that was issued before the current one allowed for all people who were waiting for their visa outcome to travel in and out of the country, regardless of whether your current visa has expired. I traveled in and out of South Africa without an issue, just having to show my visa application receipt. When I travelled back to my home country last Juen to attend my grandfathers funeral, I was blacklisted at OR Thambo because I had overstayed my visa. I tried to explain that I was married to a South African and waiting for my visa outcome. The immigration official was extremely rude to me and blacklisted me without wanting to take a glance at my papers. During the appeals process, the DHA contacted me asking for a bribe. The PRIVATE SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER told me she could lift my ban no problem – should I be willing to pay up. Naturally, I didn’t. I did, however, record this conversation and my lawyer sent it to everyone she knew, including the Hawks. This resulted in my ban being lifted, after having been separated from my family for three months. The DHA is a disgrace and I feel so sorry for anyone who has to deal with them in any way.

  • Kon Lang says:

    Thank you DM for bringing this info out. My wife applied for her spousal visa in January 2023 and we are still waiting for a resolution. It is terrible! VFS has no idea what is going on and all this time we can’t leave the country. We have been told, off the record by VFS employees, that DHA are rejecting spousal visas for very flimsy reasons so we must be prepared to appeal.

    We are at our wits end and are considering emigrating just so she can have a decent legal status and not live in limbo.

  • I applied for my wife’s temporary spousla visa in Feb 2022
    To date i have gotten 15 responses via email saying that it is still being finalized. My wife and I have a child born in South Africa and the worry that her visa may never be finalized or approved is weighing on us heavily.

    Its sad that we and many others have to go through this tedious process.

  • kite.sigrid says:

    Like many of these comments, I submitted my Spousal Visa application + work extension 22 April 2022 and still waiting to hear back. Also, it is worth mentioning that the process to apply for a spousal visa is SO unclear (even with English as my first and only language) that we had to hire a lawyer to assist us, and had to pay lots of money to get the documents necessary to apply for the visa. This application took about three months to compile all the necessary documents and was 52 pages in the end. Then actually submitting it at the VFS office took me six hours, with queues wrapping all the way to the car park. All-in-all it cost me over R10,000 for the fees, appointments and travel to submit this application. Now, 19 months later and all we get told is that there is still a backlog with seemingly no movement. My lawyer has said that few of her 2022 clients have heard back.

    We are now at a breaking point financially. I did not expect to be out of work this long. It is past stressful, it is debilitating and ruining my career. I am so keen to be part of the work force, pay my taxes, and contribute to the South African economy. Why is it this so hard? I am trying to do it all the right way…

  • I’ve been waiting over a year for renewal of my spousal visa yet have been able to travel, relying on the concession (due to the backlog )

  • Johan Bruintjes says:

    Hi all,

    My wife has two visa’s outstanding. The first is a spousal (a relative visa section 8 of the act), and the second is a Permanent residence visa. We applied for the Spousal visa in July of 2023, and have not heard anything. We applied for permanent residency in December 2022, and also have not heard anything. We also have an incorrectly printed birth certificate for our daughter that we asked to be corrected in may 2021. We have braved the home affairs lines many times here in Bellville, but they say the problem lies in Pretoria. Is there a way we can have someone inquire about the visas and birth certificate in Pretoria. We would really like to go and visit family in the States and Canada in June 2024, but cant make any plans, because DHA is so far behind.

  • Trevor Davies says:

    Thank you! The first reliable insight to the problems ive had with spousal visa. The bigger problem still remains applying for permane t residence then rendwi g and renewing spousal visas for years when there is no answer.

  • Anon Cowherd says:

    I would love to know the followup to this story, as we’re currently in a similar situation.

    Did this person receive their visa by now, or are they still waiting?

  • Johan Bruintjes says:

    Hopefully some journalist is still following this up. We have waited for the Spousal visa now for 7 months! The wait time is supposed to be 6-8 weeks. We have been at home affairs a lot over the past 7 years and it just keeps getting worse. Not sure if there is anything we can do? We also have a permanent residency visa in process, but we have no high hopes for that one to be processed.

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