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MAVERICK INTERVIEW

Look back in astonishment: Mcebisi Jonas on the big takeouts from Zondo Commission, and Ramaphosa’s stealth moves against State Capture

After three years and volumes of startling evidence of gargantuan corruption, one of the original State Capture whistle-blowers, former deputy minister of finance Mcebisi Jonas, looks back at the Zondo Commission.
Look back in astonishment: Mcebisi Jonas on the big takeouts from Zondo Commission, and Ramaphosa’s stealth moves against State Capture Mcebisi Jonas. (Photo: Gallo Images / Netwerk 24 / Deaan Vivier)

In an interview with Daily Maverick, former deputy minister of finance Mcebisi Jonas revealed that President Cyril Ramaphosa, while Jacob Zuma’s deputy, had, in fact, directly attempted to mitigate some of the damage caused by decisions made by Zuma and the party.

While many have criticised Ramaphosa’s testimony to the Zondo Commission, as it wrapped up in August, as tepid and more political performance than solid explanation, Jonas said there were areas where Ramaphosa, as deputy president, did push back but that were not disclosed to the commission.

“When you listened to what the president said, there is an assumption created that quite frankly he did nothing, that he did nothing to intervene,” said Jonas, “when in fact the truth of the matter is there were many occasions when he did.”

Jonas revealed that it was Ramaphosa, as deputy president of the ANC and head of the deployment committee, who had led the charge against the appointment by then-president Jacob Zuma of Des van Rooyen as finance minister in December 2015 after firing Nhlanhla Nene.

As one of the early whistle-blowers – it was the Financial Times of London that broke the story in March 2016 that the Gupta family had directly approached Jonas to replace Nene –  Jonas found himself in the eye of the hurricane.

Four days after appointing Van Rooyen, Zuma uncharacteristically backtracked and reappointed Pravin Gordhan, who had been finance minister from 2009 to 2014.

It was a turning point in the “silent coup”, as Jonas has described it, by the Zuma/Gupta nexus to capture all institutions of the state.

Jonas set out how Treasury Director-General Lungisa Fuzile and himself had separately met with Ramaphosa early one morning after the announcement of Van Rooyen’s appointment, as both men had considered resigning from the Treasury.

“He was very firm, saying, ‘Don’t resign, give me until the weekend and if by Monday I have failed to reverse this you can resign and I might even do so myself,’” recalled Jonas.

On Sunday Ramaphosa called Jonas to inform him that Gordhan had been appointed: “Listen, it has been reversed. Pravin has been appointed.” 

It was also Ramaphosa, he said, who had pushed back when there was discussion within the party to put pressure on the Treasury to intervene in the decision by South African banks to close Gupta-related accounts.

“There he stood up against the tide and said South Africa had a Constitution, it had laws and that the minister of finance should not intervene.” 

With regard to the R1-trillion Russian nuclear deal, Jonas said there was an understanding and discussion generally that it would be a terrible deal for the government and the country and it was Ramaphosa’s instruction to walk it along as long as possible.

“He said that by the time we have to make a decision Zuma will be gone. He told us to find everything in the book to delay,” Jonas said.

Then there was the controversial establishment of the Border Management Agency (BMA) which would have hoovered R300-billion out of the SA Revenue Service (SARS) and placed it under the auspices of Home Affairs.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2018-05-28-border-line-insane-the-silent-coup-that-could-change-the-country-forever/

The BMA would have removed the functions of customs and excise from SARS and in so doing a significant portion of South Africa’s revenue.

Jonas revealed how this move was resisted and that Rampahosa had tried to intervene, having seen the red flags on the horizon. In that instance he failed. And while the act was passed setting up the agency, nothing has been implemented.

With regard to the Zondo Commission itself, Jonas said that unlike most commissions, which often ended up as political exercises, the fact that evidence given will be used to prosecute wrongdoers “was a turning point”.

“But the commission also helped in many other ways, most crucially bringing a body of evidence and detail that showed that State Capture is a reality in all its manifestation,” he said.

Fears that the commission, like elsewhere in the world, would be used to delay prosecutions were allayed when approval was made for some of the evidence led to be used by law enforcement authorities.

“That broke the trend,” said Jonas.

He added, however, that this was “a double-edged sword” as the prosecution of Bosasa’s Angelo Agrizzi after his testimony to the commission might have frightened others from coming forward.

Another major benefit, if it can be described as such, was that the commission led to a clearer understanding of State Capture and corruption on the one hand, and the suppression of the Constitution and democracy on the other.

“We would never have understood the connection between the two and of protecting the Constitution and the rule of law,” said Jonas.

What the Zondo Commission also exposed was how the ANC, with its Marxist tradition, viewed the state as an instrument of the party.

“For those who win elections it is an instrument to advance their policies and people, but in that notion of the state being an instrument lies the conflation between the state and the party and this undermines the citizenry.”

The commission had exposed, he said, that the “state was always in service of the party”.

When political parties “degenerate ethically and politically” this found expression in the state, “because in your view you don’t make the distinction”.

The role of citizenry, it was clear from the commission, was “not understood and enhanced as central”. 

Changing the electoral system in South Africa would not change the fact that “we still have political parties that are fundamentally and politically flawed”.

The commission, he said, also revealed the direct link between corruption, State Capture and existing structural factors in the country’s economy where those with political power have no economic power.

“The wealth creation process is still via the route of using rents as a basis for creating power. In a context like this, institutions and the state will always be vulnerable.”

Wealth should be created by an economy that was driven through innovation and growth, and that was not dependent on rent-seeking.

What South Africa needs, he added, was a momentum set by civil society and active citizenry that would provide pointers for setting a new agenda for the country.

“Hopefully, the political parties will catch up.” DM

Comments (10)

Bruce Kokkinn Aug 26, 2021, 07:15 AM

Where are the moral patriots who would stand up to protect the social contract between the population and the evil idiocracy? Fiduciary duties are a myth for our government.

Gerrie Pretorius Pretorius Aug 26, 2021, 08:26 AM

'Our' government is the myth. There is a ruling party, but no government.

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 12:07 PM

I agree, currently. My question is: how is your comment helpful?

Hiram C Potts Aug 26, 2021, 07:23 AM

In a nutshell, the Zondo Commission has highlighted the ANC's economic policy, one which is premised on the government stealing from the citizenry. It has further impoverished mainly poor Black people for the benefit of the party, its cadres & their families. Viva ANC- heroes of the People!

MIKE WEBB Aug 26, 2021, 09:16 AM

After Zondo, the taps are closing. cANCer is struggling to pay salaries because the steady stream of deployed cadre tender kickbacks are being throttled. Have a triple!

Hiram C Potts Aug 26, 2021, 10:39 AM

Yep, saw that. They haven't paid salaries for 3 consecutive months. A combination of the taps closing because of Zondo & the fact that there's probably not much money left to steal, it's gone.....

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 12:09 PM

watch the new "green paper" - ...just take 12% more - reminds me of Dwight Shrute from The Office (American) when he's explaining how he can get 5 steaks off his cow if he cuts them from the right places, still keeping the animal alive. Moooooooooooo

Charles Parr Aug 26, 2021, 01:21 PM

Hiram, you've reminded me of what the MD of an upmarket furniture shop when they went out of business a few years ago. He said that their customer base had shrunk because they weren't able to steal as much as previously. Maybe they just hadn't been paid.

Carsten Rasch Aug 26, 2021, 07:49 AM

“What South Africa needs, was a momentum set by civil society and active citizenry that would provide pointers for setting a new agenda for the country.” So, Mr Jonas, stand up and start putting your words into action. The people desperately need new leadership.

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 08:17 AM

Well I for one am of the opinion that many commenters knowingly delude themselves as to what any individual could have achieved under Zuma without rendering him/herself completely ineffective for the country. It could be so so much worse. The very fact that CR is in the presidency and able to effect change is for me vindication of his strategy. Seeing the criminal rabble paralysed in court cases is no small achievement, and it provides a small amount of wiggle room to assemble a ground base for positive change. From what I can see the SA tanker is turning. It is slow, but it is turning. And I will continue to wholeheartedly support the President as long as I continue to see what I consider a more positive trajectory for this country.

Gerrie Pretorius Pretorius Aug 26, 2021, 08:31 AM

Must say - I am also pleased that cr is there and not jz any longer. But just imagine what could have been had the anc any inclination of morality or ethics in their midst.

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 08:35 AM

If wishes were horses then beggars would ride. We are where we are and we have what we have - the best option we have right now is to keep the spark burning, however small, and hopefully help turn it into the fire from which the SA phoenix can rise.

Karl Sittlinger Aug 26, 2021, 09:05 AM

While you are right, I think it is very very important we keep on remembering that it is the ANC that brought us to this place since 94. It is their failures, corruption and cadre deployment that stopped this countries healing process from the damage done by apartheid, and it was done just for money. Could it have been worse absolutely, but does that excuse the destruction of the economy by the ANC for greed only? Is it really ok for our president to lie during arguably one of the most important commissions in South African recent history just to protect his buddies? Is it acceptable that we still havn't seen any serious accountability on anything done by the ANC? Is it OK that the corruption is still going in full force even during the worst pandemic in history? At what point is cowing to the corrupt and criminals no longer acceptable? Yes lets give credit were it is due, but not at the cost of the truth.

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 11:24 AM

I would hope it reasonably obvious I have factored many many aspects in before making my comment above. I will just say that at a broad level my preference is 50% of something to 100% of nothing.

Rob vZ Aug 26, 2021, 08:22 AM

Jonas for president.

Jane Crankshaw Aug 26, 2021, 09:13 AM

Thuli Madonsela for President!

Paddy Ross Aug 26, 2021, 11:40 AM

SA really should give serious consideration to having an apolitical President of the country with clearly prescribed duties, mainly but not exclusively, ceremonial with the leader of the majority political party in Parliament as Prime Minister.

Gerrie Pretorius Pretorius Aug 26, 2021, 08:24 AM

"The commission had exposed, he said, that the “state was always in service of the party”." - and nothing has changed, I am sorry to say. cr and the anc still believe that SA belongs to the party and the feeding trough belongs to cadres deployed to rule the people. Just look at the make-up of the cabinet. Thieves and/or compromised cadres one and all.

Ian Schofield Schofield Aug 26, 2021, 10:59 AM

The Zondo commission highlighted corruption and fraud. Who has been arrested or charged? Corruption continues. A case in point - - The SA/Zimbabwe border is closed. Or is it? My Zimbabwe gardener went through the border at Musina. He was "charged" R 500 by South African officials to stamp his passport. On coming back, he was again charged R 500 to come back to South Africa. He had had both his vaccinations. I doubt if the fiscus see this money!!!!

Jennifer Ward Aug 26, 2021, 11:29 AM

Thanks Mr Jonas, so good to hear an insider track with some stories of integrity and hope.

Glyn Morgan Aug 26, 2021, 12:30 PM

The final word, Mcebisi Jonas - “Hopefully, the political parties will catch up.” So, it is time to vote the opposition in. The tiny parties are only good for the loooong game, multiple elections. The DA is the only party that can get things moving in the short time frame, these coming elections, Municipal and National.

William Kelly Aug 26, 2021, 01:13 PM

If it was boet, it'd be doing it. So far so bad then eh?

Fanie Rajesh Ngabiso Aug 26, 2021, 05:19 PM

Glyn with one n - i would put a lot of money on betting that most people here will vote DA unless something changes dramatically. There comes a time to stop selling ...typically when it's already sold.

Sandra Goldberg Aug 26, 2021, 06:51 PM

According to this article, most of Ramaphosa’s “interventions” were along the lines of finance-praiseworthy might this have been, they did nothing to attempt to stop the disgusting full throttle looting in which some of his comrades in the ANC were participating, and of which , despite his protestations to the contrary, he must have been aware since it had been in the public domain for some time.