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The radio clash between Zille and Mdoda that exposed our racial fault lines in politics

The heated exchange revealed a point of inflection in political dynamics and how the issue of race that has shaped the country will not go away simply because people refuse to talk about it.

On Monday evening, 22 September, while attending a friend’s book launch, another friend asked me if I’d seen radio host Anele Mdoda’s interview with Helen Zille that morning on 947. I hadn’t, and the noisy book launch wasn’t the right time to watch, so I saved it for later.

I’m sure that by now many have seen the heated interview, with Zille getting particularly hot and bothered in a tense exchange.

The subject of the interview was Zille’s recent confirmation as the DA’s Joburg mayoral candidate, a highly unimaginative move that, I must say, induced an eyeroll from me.

As I watched the interview, I chuckled to myself at the acerbic missiles being launched, particularly when Zille’s hackles were raised as Mdoda told her: “Black people struggle to see you wanting to forward them.”

Zille retorted: “Anele, when were you elected as the spokesperson for all black people?”

Although Mdoda is obviously not an elected spokesperson for black people, the exchange struck me as an important moment for South Africans to reflect on. It revealed a point of inflection in political dynamics and how the issue of race that has shaped the country will not go away simply because people refuse to talk about it.

Zille cut the profile of an incredulous white liberal who was gobsmacked that a black woman would not only have the audacity to challenge her white saviour complex, but also have the temerity to take her on without backing down, despite being goaded with personal attacks, on one of the city’s biggest radio stations. It has a diverse listenership representative of the voter base Zille is vying for.

A colleague asked: “Do you think Auntie Helen is following the Trump playbook?”

It dawned on me then that although Zille should be challenged, she is not to be dismissed, because her kind of politics does have an appeal to some, even to black people. This is because she represents self-preservation and protectionism of the middle class.

Those in the middle class who do not have a sense of community and identity beyond careerism and the safeguarding of their insular aspirations of suburban and gentrified living, characterised by braai banter about potholes, broken traffic lights and how expensive their children’s private schooling is, will identify with Zille’s rhetoric. She also represents those who are aspiring to join this group of people.

It is a fact – but hardly breaking news – that the ANC is not doing much to ingratiate itself with people. However, this does not mean that people should reach for anything that presents itself as an alternative.

And in this instance it is the DA itself, which has proven to have no interest in an honest conversation about the country’s political history and context, that renders black people suspicious of it.

Some of us have no interest in “knowing our place” and never challenging an overwhelmingly white party that weaponises the word “woke” against black people who refuse to have their lived experiences erased.

What we do have an interest in is living the full expression of our Constitution, which recognises our racial dynamics and calls on us to live the fullest versions of ourselves. DM

This story first appeared in our weekly Daily Maverick 168 newspaper, which is available countrywide for R35.

dm168 front page 26/9/25

Comments

Johan Buys Sep 30, 2025, 02:39 PM

Zukiswa : who would you rather have running Johannesburg? 1. Helen Zille a white woman with an impeccable track record. 2. Sello Morero, a black male with a disastrous track record. The whole issue as simple as that choice. Your mayor is there to deliver services, not do social engineering. Once a council ticks the basic boxes it can dabble in social engineering.

megapode Sep 30, 2025, 05:39 PM

It's not so simple. The DA Jhb caucus have repeatedly come under fire for wanting service delivery pro-rata according to the income from each ward - the rich get stuff first, the rest will get later. They haven't disowned that. They've been aggressive and insulting, including to the Mayor, on social media. I don't think anybody believes the Mayor has done a good job, but the DA need to make friends to win votes. On the PR front, the human front, they are not scoring except for own goals.

Oct 1, 2025, 09:36 AM

If what you say is correct, then these are precisely the arguments the interviewer should have confronted Ms. Zille with, and what the author of the article could have addressed. That would then be professional journalism. What is presented here, however, is reporting without substance, which only stands in the way of a solution-oriented debate and deepens social divisions.

Karl Sittlinger Oct 1, 2025, 10:12 AM

The DA’s service delivery pro-rata does not neglect poorer wards; Cape Town shows it actively supports cross-subsidies. High-paying areas get guaranteed minimum services, while funds still flow to low-income wards. Without this, residents in wealthier areas—already leaving JHB and other cities in significant numbers—risk seeing their services steadily decline, as we are observing in JHB, creating a cycle of falling revenue that makes service delivery more challenging for all communities.

Andrew S Sep 30, 2025, 02:57 PM

"The ANC is not doing much to ingratiate itself with people. However, this does not mean that people should reach for anything that presents itself as an alternative." What exactly should we do then? In a democracy, the ballot box is the primary way of letting a ruling party know that we are not happy with their delivery.

jcf.7140 Sep 30, 2025, 03:09 PM

I don't agree with your viewpoint. Perhaps I never will, given my heritage and background. Or perhaps I think that falling back on rased-based accusations, as Anele did, was intellectually lazy and convenient. I watched the interview too and she came across as combatative, unprofessional and with obvious disdain towards HZ/DA/whiteness. Her generalizations and sweeping statements shows her ignorance. Perhaps it will take another few generations before South Africans become colorblind.

v l Sep 30, 2025, 07:19 PM

Your exact comment can be used to describe Zille, from my perspective. And no healthy society should wish for colorblindness. Difference is strength and we ought to embrace it.

Cobble Dickery Sep 30, 2025, 03:20 PM

There should be no 'racial fault lines'. Race nothing more that a red herring to justify things when the argument has run out and there is nothing left to use to justify. There should only be ethical and competency fault lines, but that is far beyond the agenda, or need I say, the comprehension of the ANC and their ilk.

The Proven Sep 30, 2025, 03:50 PM

What is a "white saviour complex"? And why would she have to "appeal to some, even to black people"? If anything, you, the writer, Zukiswa Pikoli view everything with race tinted glasses. When will black people stop being so racist? Why does all conversations about service delivery have to levitate towards race? South Africa will fall further and further behind the rest of the world while we debate if a white person can be mayor where the voters are black, rather than what the person does.

Rod MacLeod Sep 30, 2025, 04:55 PM

In a perfect imaginary world, journalists and editors would publish unbiased actual facts for assimilation by readers without any inflections or nuances. Zukiswa Pikoli is the managing editor news at DM. As such, her views imbue every article selected for publication as news in DM, and that will include her own 'opinionista'. The recent editorial content of DM news and the above opinionista are therefore reflective of this.

Gretha Erasmus Sep 30, 2025, 06:09 PM

Thanks Rod. I did not know that she is the managing editor of news. That explains so much. One does not have to be balanced and fair as an opinionista. One can be opinionated and promote a certain view point, but as a news editor you should be balanced and fair. It's quite sad actually. It will be the end of DM as a centrist voice and a defender of the truth. Now it will just be a Zukiswa Pikoli mouthpiece. Whatever that may mean.

Richard Bryant Sep 30, 2025, 07:17 PM

Absolutely untrue! DM have published quite a wide range of opinion pieces from a variety of writers. It also takes maturity to read an opinion piece of someone you might not agree with and try to understand their point of view.

Gretha Erasmus Sep 30, 2025, 08:29 PM

My point is that exactly. She is very opiniated and has a very strong bias on many topics that comes through. Which is ok, and yes I read her view point that is often very white bashing . I still reel from her Pretoria girls high reporting. It's fine to have very biased voices as your opinionistas. But such strongly opined people will not make great news editors. They are neutral and fair enough.

Gretha Erasmus Sep 30, 2025, 08:33 PM

The point is the ZP is too biased in general and too strongly opinioned with a very specific slant to be a good news editor. She is a very good far left anti white writer and that is her position. She has many good points, is probably a really nice person and I still read her though I very often find her too biased. She is not neutral nor fair enough to make a good long term news editor and it will not work out well for DM. Give her a different portfolio.

Richard Bryant Sep 30, 2025, 04:33 PM

What we saw in the last election was a determination of the middle class to keep things together. That was not only a DA/white vote about potholes, but a wider expression by people who aspire to having a job, home, medical aid and education. Not anything grand. We wish this for all SA's. The poor have clearly given up. Those close to the ANC have become super rich and rush out to buy a few Maserati's. If only the politicians would understand this. Perhaps a bit of Mamdani would resonate.

Notinmyname Fang Sep 30, 2025, 05:29 PM

Anele got klapped, face it!

megapode Sep 30, 2025, 05:32 PM

Oh boy! I just watched this for the first time, having heard snippets and having heard about it. Zille has been spending too much time on social media - very aggressive, meeting fire with double fire. Even when they're saying thanks and good bye (politely) she can't put the sarcasm on hold. It's a bad look. Playing stupid word games doesn't help either. She's a refugee? Oh my word. Bad PR. A campaign off to a poor start.

Karl Sittlinger Oct 1, 2025, 06:12 AM

It seemed clear Anele approached the interview in bad faith. Her questions were loaded, framed to paint Zille in a negative light rather than genuinely seeking answers. Instead of exploring the issues, she often interrupted or rephrased replies to fit her own narrative. This turned what could have been a meaningful exchange into a confrontation. While some may argue she was simply holding power to account, the tone suggested provocation, not fair engagement.

megapode Oct 1, 2025, 08:54 AM

Zille couldn't control that and isn't responsible for that. She would be very naive if she didn't think that was coming. But she is responsible for the way she conducted herself. We may think she was justified in her responses, but that doesn't make them prudent. Max Mosley had the rule that professionals say only what they need to say given their situation and aims, amateurs say what they want when they feel like saying it. By that yardstick Zille is an amateur.

Karl Sittlinger Oct 1, 2025, 09:10 AM

Yes, Zille did lose her cool a little, but only after repeated provocation. Anele’s loaded questions and interruptions created an atmosphere where it was almost impossible to have a fair exchange. While politicians should remain composed, it’s not reasonable to ignore the role of an interviewer who frames in bad faith. In this case, Anele set the tone for confrontation, and Zille’s reaction was more human than amateur.

Karl Sittlinger Oct 1, 2025, 09:43 AM

Anele steered the interview toward emotive topics and oversimplifications, like comparing Camps Bay to an informal settlement, framing issues in stark, provocative terms. Zille, in response, relied on facts, numbers, and policy context, trying to ground the discussion in reality. By that yardstick, Anele acted in bad faith, prioritizing political point-scoring over fair, constructive dialogue, not the hallmarks of a good radio host, in my opinion.

Just another Comment Oct 6, 2025, 10:56 AM

I think she was trying to make a point that isn't the fault of the refugee who has fled bad condition, but rather the fault those who have created the bad conditions.

Gretha Erasmus Sep 30, 2025, 06:14 PM

When I listened to the interview a few days after it aired the only thing I thought was that Anele won that round. She clearly intended to push HZ to the point where she lost her temper and Anele won because she got HZ to lose her temper. Joburg needs the DA to fix it. It is the only party that has the capacity to fix it. It maybe not suit the writer if the DA won, that much has always been clear from her writings, how much she despises the DA, but Joburg needs it.

Andrew Blaine Sep 30, 2025, 07:46 PM

The question posed by Mdoda to Zille was inane and provocative. I make this comment based on the following: 1. The metro of Johannesburg has suffered under self serving, greedy politicians since 1994, to the extent that it is unable to offer basic services to all its residents; 2. Nobody can claim to speak for all people. The question was racist and provocative, and answer was both reactive and appropriate. Your commentary is both biased and subjective .

Hidden Name Sep 30, 2025, 08:23 PM

Wow. The chip on your shoulder may actually be larger than your head.

Brett Redelinghuys Sep 30, 2025, 10:20 PM

Lazy, lazy and sad... Sad you believe the colour's of skin determines of they can serve and serve all. Why waste time with this frivolous, pointless BS... Where gas it got you in 30 years? Is JHB better or worse? So maybe time to forget colour and find ANYONE capable of doing the job. If CT is better run than JHB, then maybe voting (and supporting) those people to try repeat the job, might not be a dof idea? Pollyfilla available to fill in chips on shoulders, and let's move on.

Lawrence Sisitka Oct 1, 2025, 06:31 AM

I'm just waiting for (god)Zille to get back on track with the benefits of colonialism. That will appeal to many on this platform,I know :).

kanu sukha Oct 1, 2025, 07:12 PM

Spot on !

Wilhelm van Rooyen Oct 5, 2025, 01:22 PM

Maybe if she ends up running Jhb you can share in those benefits...

Leon Groenveld Oct 1, 2025, 08:47 AM

One thing that seems to have gone missing in all the political mud throwing and point scoring is that Joburg has now evolved into a City that actually needs saving. For some, on display on this thread, politics matter more than Joburg. This is wrong. Just get someone, ANYONE, with the enthusiasm and expertise to do this. And who will fall asleep at night thinking NOT whether they're black, white, EFF, DA or ANC etc. but what they've accomplished for the City and all its people.

Brian Algar Oct 1, 2025, 09:57 AM

"This is because she represents self-preservation and protectionism of the middle class." So, I would support the DA or for that matter any party or person who could fix Joburg, and absolutely to protect the middle class. But also to uplift the poor, the emerging class and the rich. Competence and honesty should have no colour, so if Dodo Morono was honestly the best choice to fix Joburg for all its people, he would get my support. The current crime and grime alliance certainly can't.

Kate Powell Oct 2, 2025, 03:12 PM

While I understand your point about Zille’s political style and the ongoing role of race in our country, some of your arguments risk the same kind of generalisation you accuse her of. You trivialise many middle-class people who genuinely care about South Africa. What we need now is less division and more focus on present realities. Look beyond our history and beyond colour. The real question is which leaders truly care about getting it right for all South Africans.

Rudd van Deventer Oct 3, 2025, 06:32 PM

Really Zukiswa Pikoli. If you are so cheesed off with the ANC and their failures do not take it out on the DA and Helen Zille. Also I am not sure why the 'Middle Class' has attracted your dislike; I would have thought that you are one of us - it is not a 'White' thing!

Hartmut Winkler Oct 5, 2025, 02:24 AM

The problem with the DA and their commentator machinery as seen here and as personified by 'Madam' Zille: they do not listen and think they always know better. If you want to serve the people of Joburg as mayor, a good start would be to show us some respect by listening to what the people of Joburg (includes Anele Mdoda, Zukiswa Pikoli and many others) have to say.

Wilhelm van Rooyen Oct 5, 2025, 01:25 PM

Is it by now not clear what has to be done in Jhb? No more talking, it's time for doing, and none better than HZ to lead it

Hartmut Winkler Oct 5, 2025, 08:54 PM

It is Management 101. You do not disrespect your team and pretend you know better, especially when you have been parachuted in from the outside. If Zille doesn't get that then she must rather stay in the WC.

Karl Sittlinger Oct 6, 2025, 08:52 AM

Clearly what ever has been done till now in JHB is not working. Maybe its time for a new approach? Yes, JHB is not Cape Town, but when in comes to running a city I will take Zilles word way above those of Anele Mdoda or Zukiswa Pikoli, purely due to hard experience, and many many years of it. Look at the interview: instead of asking constructive questions and working together, Anele was trying to catch out Zille before she has even begun doing anything at all. Who is not working with whom here?

gerob Oct 5, 2025, 11:34 AM

I may have missed it above but how correct is "overwhelmingly white party" ? The DA won 22% of support in the last election. There are about 7.5% white people in South Africa. If say 5% vote for the DA, that leaves 17% black voters. where is "overwhelmingly" ??