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THE INTERVIEW

Time to mute ‘megaphone’ on Gaza — Ebrahim Rasool, SA’s new US ambassador

Ambassador Ebrahim Rasool thinks SA and Trump are ‘in alignment’ on Russia’s war against Ukraine.
Time to mute ‘megaphone’ on Gaza — Ebrahim Rasool, SA’s new US ambassador U.S. President-elect Donald Trump speaks at a House Republicans Conference meeting at the Hyatt Regency on Capitol Hill on November 13, 2024 in Washington, DC. As is tradition with incoming presidents, Trump is traveling to Washington, DC to meet with U.S. President Joe Biden at the White House as well as Republican members of Congress on Capitol Hill. (Photo: Allison Robbert-Pool / Getty Images) Former South African Ambassador to United States Ebrahim Rasool addresses the Cape Town Press Club on December 15, 2020 in Cape Town, South Africa. It is reported that Rassol deliberated on the US Elections, the transition from Trump to Biden and its implications for South Africa. (Photo: Gallo Images / Brenton Geach)

South Africa’s incoming ambassador to the US, Ebrahim Rasool, says he will put away South Africa’s “megaphone” on Gaza to avoid antagonising President-elect Donald Trump and other Republicans gunning to kick South Africa out of Agoa because of its stances on contentious foreign policy issues like the Middle East, Russia’s war against Ukraine and China.

Rasool also believes that Pretoria and Trump are basically “in alignment” on Russia’s war against Ukraine because both share a “healthy disrespect for Nato” and oppose the Biden administration’s imperative that Nato should “surround Russia”.

Rasool, 62, leaves later this month to take up the post of ambassador in a very different and more difficult Washington than the one he left exactly 10 years ago after four years – generally considered successful – as ambassador to President Barack Obama’s administration. Before that, Rasool was the premier of the Western Cape from 2004 to 2008 when the ANC controlled the province. He ran for Parliament in this year’s general election on the ANC’s list but declined to take up his seat in favour of his job as chairperson of the DBSA (from which he has now resigned to take up the ambassadorship).

From 20 January next year, Trump will be back in the Oval Office, vowing to Make America Great Again, regardless of the costs to other countries. For South Africa, the great concern is that he and Congress will carry out the threats by many Republican – and even some Democratic – legislators to rescind SA’s benefits under the African Growth and Opportunity Act (Agoa) which gives SA and other eligible sub-Saharan African countries duty-free access to the lucrative US market for many of their products.

The entire Agoa programme expires next year and must be renewed by Congress. This year, the House of Representatives passed legislation which would demand that the US Administration review US-SA relations because they see it as too friendly to Russia, China and Iran. The review could trigger SA’s expulsion from Agoa or at least some of its benefits.

Read more: Uncertain future: how a Trump presidency could reshape South Africa’s economic landscape

Balancing SA’s values and interests

In an interview with Daily Maverick, Rasool said he was very aware that being SA ambassador to the US would be much more difficult this time round with a president who is “probably populism perfected. So I’m not going there thinking of business as usual… I understand the need to completely recalibrate.”

That required the government to rebalance its values with its interests in foreign policy. Over the last two years, the pendulum had swung too far towards values, he said.

“We stuck to our guns on Ukraine and Russia. We took on Israel and by implication, its backers in the International Court of Justice.”

South Africa also worked hard to rebalance the world order by helping to give birth to a multipolar world through expanding BRICS – because the unipolar world led by the US had created three decades of insecurity and wars, said Rasool.

But now Rasool’s mission was “not only to be the purveyor of values, but I’ve got to fight damn hard to protect South Africa’s interests as well” – to move that pendulum back towards the middle, to a position that would be comfortable both for SA on the one hand and on the other, for the United States in particular, but also the West in general.

In other words, moderating South Africa’s positions on the foreign policy issues that have annoyed the Americans? Would he be able to do that on his own, Daily Maverick asked him. 

Rasool replied that he had just had a good chat with President Ramaphosa and had left with the understanding that South Africa would not give up on the genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) – “which is tied up with our founding values and identity as a people”.

Read more: Middle East Crisis news hub

“But we have taken it to the point in which others are accusing us of overreaching. And therefore we will stick by the case, but let us now trust our legal team, trust the evidence that we have placed in front of the judges of the ICJ, trust the judges of the ICJ to come to a sustainable, just solution – but that we need to put away the megaphone now.

“And the President’s words were, it is now sub judice. So our government doesn’t have to reach for the megaphone any more.”

War in Europe

Rasool said, “Trump’s idea about Russia-Ukraine is different to Biden’s idea.”

The Biden administration and the liberal establishment generally weren’t satisfied simply with having won the Cold War – “They needed to surround Russia with allies who joined Nato. If you’ve won the Cold War, why expand Nato?” 

“Where I think we have opportunities is the idea that I think Mr Trump has healthy disrespect for Nato.”

Rasool said Trump was not pro-Putin. But he also didn’t share the Biden administration’s imperative to treat Russia as a revanchist power wanting to take over.

“He’s going to find a solution to the war because he doesn’t share the primary objective of the liberal establishment, that Russia must not only be defeated, but it must be annihilated.

“And we must step into that language that war is bad. And that where Trump says war is bad, because it’s bad for business, we say war is bad because it’s bad for people. But we converge on the idea that war is bad, whether in the Middle East or whether in Europe. And so I think we’re aligned.” 

Agoa … and Elon Musk

Rasool said to deal with the Trump administration – and protect Agoa – “we’ve got to get into the art of the deal and speak a transactional language, not a giveaway language, but a give and take language.”

Having the SA-born multibillionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk in Trump’s inner circle would help, he suggested. Musk would understand how much South Africa’s and Africa’s critical minerals were needed for the electric cars, the spacecraft, and the energy projects that Musk was building. 

Musk would know what it costs to buy those critical minerals, already beneficiated, from China. Why not rather have Americans investing in South Africa to beneficiate local and other African critical minerals here, Rasool asked.

He said South Africa had about 78% of the world’s critical platinum minerals and also key smelters to process other critical minerals from the rest of Africa. The African Continental Free Trade Agreement and the building of connective logistics, like the Lobito Rail corridor from the Angolan coast to the mines of Democratic Republic of the Congo and Zambia would help to get those minerals to SA for beneficiation and then to the US. 

“And that’s where I think we have to present Africa as fundamentally integrated rather than a set of isolated countries that you can choose to punish or not,” he said, referring to the threat to drop SA from Agoa. 

Read more: Trade Minister Tau confident US will renew SA’s Agoa membership

Part of the transactional approach would be to ensure that the Trump administration and Congress understood that the South African oranges that entered the US under Agoa allowed Americans to drink orange juice all year round when Florida and California oranges were out of season.

“And why would you want to punish America with expensive cars when the BMWs coming from South Africa are going to be much cheaper than getting them from Germany or manufacturing your own?

“Likewise, to point out that American cancer patients are receiving medical nuclear isotopes that come from South Africa. 

“So you must speak into not against … the American self-imagination and the imagination of a Donald Trump … to be able to frame a message that doesn’t evoke contrarianism or agro, that I think speaks into the angst of America, the angst that they are being overrun by others, that everyone is out to get them … that the cure for your angst is connectivity, not isolation.”

“And we understand that you may want to connect on your own terms, but let’s negotiate it, that’s the art of the deal. It is about framing the messages in particular ways that makes South Africa an ally.”

“I have absolutely no doubt that our preferred partner of choice has to be the USA. China can win that battle on the basis of volume of trade. America wins it on the basis of value of trade.

“And value is multidimensional, it’s not just how much gets on to a ship. It’s how many jobs stand behind that export. How much industrialisation goes into that export. How much does it raise your level of sophistication and technology in your economy?”

But Rasool said that even though the US could command priority based on the value of SA exports, “it shouldn’t demand exclusivity. Don’t tell us we can’t trade with China. Because if we put all our eggs in one basket, the moment your Congress decides we are kicked out of trade, we have nowhere to go.” DM

This article was updated at 9:53 on Thursday, 5 December 2024, to reflect that Rasool declined to take up a seat in Parliament following the 2024 elections. 

Comments

Daniel Cohen Dec 4, 2024, 06:52 AM

Nobody in the West, Mr Rasool, is calling for the destruction of Russia. They are trying their best to prevent the destruction of Ukraine. And by the way, what guns has SA stuck to re Ukraine. And to state that SA is anti-NATO = zero sum game: stroke Trump and needle EU. Where does that get us?

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 10:06 AM

Regarding Ukraine , SA agree to intial agreement at start of war , Ukraine agreed , but was pressured by Boris Johnson reject . Promised full support of US, UK, Nato, EU will enable them to win the war. Things have not gone to plan.

Malcolm McManus Dec 4, 2024, 01:20 PM

Very good point. Without Boris, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved. Now with so much territory lost, I don't see any negotiations going in favor of Ukraine. They have little room for negotiation. The only other option is potential nuclear war and that's a non starter.

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 02:06 PM

The US and UK and EU military equipment suppliers are smiling , the bulk of Ukraine aid went to them. Ukraine just replaced Afghanistan sales .

Malcolm McManus Dec 4, 2024, 03:03 PM

True, which is why I worry about the next few weeks with people like Biden and two Teir Keir in charge of their respective countries. Who knows what they will do before Trump takes the reigns. Hopefully nothing irreversible.

Steve Davidson Dec 4, 2024, 07:02 AM

This rambling rubbish from a ridiculous retard doesn't fill me with much confidence especially when he says stupid things like "If you’ve won the Cold War, why expand Nato?”. I mean, FFS, the Eastern Europeans have been queuing up to join! They know Putin. Check Ukraine...

Ga g Dec 4, 2024, 10:05 AM

Youtube "jeffrey sachs ukraine war and nato" brings a lot of perspective into why Russia is behaving as it is.

Malcolm McManus Dec 4, 2024, 03:55 PM

There are a lot of experts on this matter and most share the same view. We are so brainwashed by the West, we don't want to believe what we see and hear for ourselves. Nato is no longer what it was intended to be.

Paul Mathias Dec 5, 2024, 12:30 PM

Spot on Malcolm, brainwashed indeed.

ianec Dec 5, 2024, 01:17 PM

Sachs has been a long-term useful idiot for Russia. He literally regurgitates Russian lies and propaganda. Dig deeper. Just because someone is an academic doesn't mean they always speak truth.

Two Wrongs Aint No Right Dec 4, 2024, 07:09 AM

He shows a very low understanding of important issues like Agoa and NATO. Unbelievable example of cadre deployment again. America needs us far, far less than we need them, bro. NATO must obviously grow when communist dictators who murder opposition leaders, invade neighbours, talk about nuclear war.

Peter Oosthuizen Dec 4, 2024, 07:23 AM

If this is the best we can do - despair!

Rodshep Dec 4, 2024, 07:39 AM

A foolish man who thinks he speaks for the whole of Sout Africa, sorry old chap but you don't speak for me. Only sensible people with my prior permission do so. Do try not to stick your foot in your mouth whilst you are over there. Trump doesn't care what you think, or think you know.

Andrew Blaine Dec 4, 2024, 07:41 AM

We took on Israel and by implication, its backers in the International Court of Justice.” How can SA justify this position when considering its actions at Marikana and Stilfontein?

Ga g Dec 4, 2024, 10:07 AM

Some might say the ANC was in dire need of cash to fund its election campaign. Enter Iran stage left with an offer to fund the ANC in return for SA bringing a case before the ICJ

andrew.farrer Dec 4, 2024, 10:47 AM

Marikana, yes. Stilfontein?? It's not like the police are shooting at zama's (the opposite actually). They have a choice, leave the shafts and get food/ medicine, or don't and suffer.

mi Dec 4, 2024, 07:50 AM

Love to hear him explaining Gift Of The Givers alleged links with Iran...

John P Dec 4, 2024, 08:15 AM

Is this a cheap shot at Gift of the Givers? An organization that has saved lives and supported the victims of natural disaster and also government ineptitude.

User Dec 4, 2024, 09:04 AM

Gift of the Givers has by their own actions become a political entity - shouting on SA to support the ANC in elections, shouting their allegiance with Hamas. Yes Gift of the Givers have helped thousands in SA and abroad, but that does not detract. Hitler created employment. Hitler loved dogs.

franna63 Dec 4, 2024, 10:12 AM

Absolutely agree! Where ISLAM is involved, be wary, very wary.

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 12:34 PM

Also wary of the evangelical christians , their ideology would compete with ISIS ideology . All religions have their extreme sects. At least the Catholic and Anglican have retained their sanity.

T'Plana Hath Dec 4, 2024, 01:17 PM

This is why I love Hare Krishnas; the more radicalized and fundamentalist they become, the less dangerous they are. The only threat 'emanating' from them comes from eating too many lentils! I thoroughly recommend popping in at your local temple for 'dinner and a show'.

John P Dec 4, 2024, 03:40 PM

Perhaps the problem you have is that they are Muslims?

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 12:16 PM

Oh? So Muslims are all the same and must answer the same questions? Where as we understand that Christianity is not a monolith and the fact that one Christian or a number of Christinas set off a bomb somewhere or other doesn't mean that all Christians must be held responsible for a few deviants?

ALAN PATERSON Dec 4, 2024, 08:22 AM

Exactly what guns did we stick to regarding Ukraine and Russia? Apart from Wally Roode's confiscated sniper rifles?

Sydney Kaye Dec 4, 2024, 08:35 AM

The ANC's speciality is the mixture of arrogance and ignorance. He thinks that SA is in alignment with the US on Ukraine, and wants to balance values with intetests as though the ANC has values. Our card is indelibly marked because of our alignment with Iran and its anti West terrorist friends.

Errol.price Dec 4, 2024, 09:18 AM

Quite Right ! This gentleman and the ANC are now seeking to wriggle out of years of amoral and hypocritical foreign policy recklessness. Mr Rasool is about as convincing as Ramaphosa on Phala Phala. The ANC will shortly be thrashing about backtracking and dissimulating as is their wont.

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 12:20 PM

No. He thinks that there is an overlap of the Trump view and the SA government's views regarding that war and NATO. So is he looking to work with that commonality rather than be 180 degrees opposed.

Sydney Kaye Dec 4, 2024, 04:35 PM

There is no commonality because the parties have different reasons for apparently similar conclusions. The ANC because they get benefits from Russia and are anti West and Trump because of America First.

Colin Braude Dec 4, 2024, 09:07 PM

To be fair, ANC & Trump do have in common: • Lies • Majoritarian racism • Jobs for pals & state capture • Electoral assistance from Putin • Contempt for Rule of Law • Xenophobia • A liking for anti-West desposts.

Desmond Bob Dec 4, 2024, 08:47 AM

AGOA is a political weapon used to undermine RSA's sovereignty in the international policy space. AGOA increasingly looks like and feels like a security risk. It seems that the benefits of us leaving Agoa would outweigh the initial pain. Agoa vacuum can and will be filled, the USA knows that

Rodney Weidemann Dec 4, 2024, 09:48 AM

You're obviously not one of the tens of thousands who stands to lose their job if we get kicked out of AGOA - otherwise I suspect you'd be less keen to deal with 'the initial pain' to obtain the 'benefits of leaving' the programme...

Michael Thomlinson Dec 4, 2024, 10:05 AM

Yep maybe you have sheltered employment in government but for the rest of us who actually work for a living AGOA is vitally important. Most people are unaware to what extent SA exports goods, from agricultural goods to automotive parts and cars. 1000's of jobs could on the line if we lose AGOA.

Sydney Kaye Dec 4, 2024, 04:37 PM

How is it a security risk. You just heard that somewhere. Are the millions that the US give to us for HIV also a security risk.

graemebirddurban Dec 4, 2024, 09:18 AM

So funny how Rasool twists reality to regard Trump as an ally.

jackjack12 Dec 4, 2024, 09:20 AM

Agree. Time to put away that megaphone

Michele Rivarola Dec 4, 2024, 09:22 AM

The US looks after its own interest and will do so increasingly more patently under Trump. SA is a gnat in the US's trade balances and will be treated accordingly. China's IT production is heading into obsolescence as they no longer have access to the latest chips or lithographic equipment.

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 10:19 AM

Should read latest report to US congress on Chinese Tech innovation. Why you think the latest ban on chip technology to China ? Chinese innovation is catching up faster than expected . Their research on chip tecnology is not following western route , if they succeed will bypass western tech .

fourie.theu Dec 5, 2024, 04:41 PM

The ban is actually on the machines that manufacture some advanced chips. I dont know from which literature you get the rest of your statements, please enlighten us?

johnbpatson Dec 4, 2024, 09:50 AM

The first two letters in NATO refer to North Atlantic. Why should anyone from about as far South Atlantic you can get before the sheep shaggers of Argentina and Australia think they have a say? And does he think the Israel haters in the SA govt will just keep quiet?

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 12:23 PM

Yes. God forbid that a sovereign state should have, and then actually state a position on another country or an alliance of other countries. We should all know our place and kowtow before the mighty USA.

Sydney Kaye Dec 4, 2024, 04:41 PM

When you have a benefactor (whatever its motives) there is a difference between kowtowing and acting against its interests and giving comfort to its enemies.

Grumpy Old Man Dec 4, 2024, 09:56 AM

Contrary to the comments below - I appreciate Mr Rasool's more pragmatic perspective on trade relations with the States. I might not agree with everything he has to say - but this is a far more refreshing approach than that to which we have become accustomed

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 10:13 AM

From Trumps cabinet picks and their comments on the Sunday Talk shows, which go against some of Trump policies. Trumps actions still up in air how he will react. Rasool should promise to build a statue of Trump on Table Mountain and we good, he just needs to play to Trump's ego.

Michael Thomlinson Dec 4, 2024, 10:17 AM

Rasool has obviously not done his homework. His utterances show a patent lack of knowledge of the whole affair. An embarrassment. NATO is not the aggressor - Russia is threatening the security of the whole of Europe. Putin needs to be defeated and Russia allowed to build a proper democracy.

andrew.farrer Dec 4, 2024, 10:43 AM

rasool just shows he's a typical anc idiot just regurgitating Putin'(Russian) propaganda. Russia's not the problem, Putin is! Before Putin, AFTER the disolution of the USSR, Russia actually helped Lithuania become a NATO member by settling a border dispute.

Alan Watkins Dec 4, 2024, 12:09 PM

“They needed to surround Russia with allies who joined Nato. If you’ve won the Cold War, why expand Nato?” Rasool has it wrong. NATO is a defensive alliance. Post Soviet collapse it has been the ex Soviet countrties that have clamoured to join NATO, to protect themselves from Russia

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 12:25 PM

I think he's talking about Biden's policy, or at least his desired outcome.

Hilary Morris Dec 4, 2024, 12:13 PM

Rasool and Trump should get on like the proverbial house in flames. Art of the Deal indeed! And if he thinks Musk is a potential ally, probably in for a shock. No one associated with the ANC should utter the word "values". To describe Trump's disrespect for NATO as "healthy" says it all.

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 12:27 PM

Trump is not impressed with NATO as it is currently run. NATO member states are supposed to spend a certain percentage of GDP on their military, and nearly all fall short. So Trump is tired of the USA having to prop up NATO. Hence his comments about "let Putin do what the hell he wants."

Malcolm McManus Dec 4, 2024, 03:09 PM

Lets hope he engages with Putin and reaches an agreement, which I imagine would be far more productive than what anyone else has done. I don't know if Biden had either the will nor the mental capability of remotely going in the right direction with ending this war.

dexmoodl Dec 4, 2024, 03:24 PM

Bidens only wants Ukraine army not to collapse before his term ends , leave the mess in Trumps lap. Trump will carry the blame if Ukraine army collapses in his term. Ukraine like Israel lacking soldiers to fight.

Malcolm McManus Dec 4, 2024, 04:01 PM

It was destined to collapse anyway, without escalating into a global conflict. Like you say, lacking troops and they are deserting in droves. Trump will probably end the war, but at huge cost to Ukraine. The war could have been avoided. At worst, ended right at the beginning.

megapode Dec 4, 2024, 04:18 PM

I suspect Trump's biggest concern is that the USA are expending huge amounts of munitions and money in a war that is none of their making and in which no ally is involved.

louw.nic Dec 4, 2024, 12:59 PM

Ain't too proud to beg...

Richard Kennard Dec 4, 2024, 03:20 PM

Temptations?..love that song

Johan Buys Dec 4, 2024, 02:49 PM

The putin-defenders that say the west forced him into a corner need a history lesson. Putin took his version of Nato, (CSTO), right to the border with Nato when he admitted Belarus. He invaded Georgia, Moldova, Crimea long before full Ukraine war and postured Japan over the island claims.

Colin Braude Dec 4, 2024, 07:35 PM

Peter, I you must have misheard Ebrahim Brownbags when he said the genocide fiction Israel at the ICJ “is tied up with our funding and survival as a party"

Muishond X Dec 5, 2024, 06:40 AM

NATO is made up of civilised countries and is a purely defensive alliance. USA supports Ukraine. SA does not. Please save intelligent people from these Rassool "intellectual" gymnastics.

Stephen Paul Dec 5, 2024, 01:09 PM

An intelligent comment. The intelligence-insulting hypocrisy and double-speak from Rassool, blatantly misrepresenting the defensive nature of NATO, and about AGOA, the dishonest phony self-righteous claim of human rights values while starving out the miners, is what the corrupt cANCer does "best".

Ken Randell Dec 5, 2024, 11:42 AM

To be revanchist in the case of Ukraine is entirely appropriate as Russia has no claim on Crimea or East Ukraine, which they wish to take simply by conquest. I don't see current US policy as wishing to surround Russia and ".that Russia must not only be defeated, but it must be annihilated"

Ken Randell Dec 5, 2024, 11:44 AM

And in all the SA government's sound and fury about Gaza, very little about Russian aggression and absolutely zip about human rights violations in our Zimbabwe neighbour - conveniently blinkered hypocrisy,

Deon de Wet-Roos Dec 5, 2024, 02:02 PM

Where is old Legardien now? Enerse vere of wat? South Africa does NOT deserve AGOA. Your bread cannot be buttered on both sides, China and the USA as well as the feeble BRICS currency explanation. Please!

cornelius.vdwesthu Dec 6, 2024, 09:08 AM

"..the BMWs coming from SA are going to be much cheaper.." Rasool does not understanding the true facts: SA car manufacturers receive R35bn/pa subsidy from government (0.5% of GDP), but car manufacturing contributes 0.9% to GDP. Heavily subsidized by Taxpayers does not constitute cheaper prices!

Rodshep Jan 16, 2025, 05:42 PM

Bit of a snfu this appointment like waving a red rag infront of a bull. But maybe turning the sound down on his megaphone will do the trick. Mr Rasool is pro Russia and anti West read his book if you can find one.