A POSTCARD FROM AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
‘Simplistic and infantile’ to demand Russia’s withdrawal from Ukraine, says Pandor after meeting Lavrov
Perhaps the real reason that Pandor did not repeat her earlier call on Russia to withdraw from Ukraine is that the original call on February 24 last year apparently angered Russia and President Cyril Ramaphosa.
International Relations and Cooperation Minister Naledi Pandor said it would have been “simplistic and infantile” to have demanded from her Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov that Russia should withdraw its military from Ukraine.
And so, Pandor said, she had not called on him to do that when they met in Pretoria on Monday.
Pandor had been reminded that last year on February 24, just hours after Russia began its invasion of Ukraine, her department had issued a statement which said:
“South Africa calls on Russia to immediately withdraw its forces from Ukraine in line with the United Nations Charter, which enjoins all member states to settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice are not endangered.
“South Africa emphasises respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of states.”
And so she was asked at her joint press conference with Lavrov on Monday if she had repeated that call in her meeting with him earlier and, if not, why not?
“I think it was very appropriate early into this conflict to make this statement that we made at Dirco. Because if we had been able to persuade at that early stage we would not be where we are now,” Pandor replied.
“But to repeat that statement to Minister Lavrov today would make me appear quite simplistic and infantile, given the massive transfer of arms that has occurred, given the level of conflict there is, and all the developments that have occurred in almost a year, a month from now.
“So no, I did not repeat that particular statement to Minister Lavrov because I don’t wish to appear as though I don’t know what has occurred in the world.”
Pandor did not explain why the massive transfer of arms that had since occurred, or the level of conflict now reached, would prevent Russia from withdrawing from Ukraine. It sounded as though she might be suggesting that if Russia withdrew now, Ukraine, meanwhile heavily armed with Western weapons, would pursue Russian forces into Russia.
But given the many threats which Russia has made to retaliate with nuclear weapons if its territory were to be transgressed, that seems a very unlikely scenario.
Sergey Lavrov, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, is welcomed for bilateral talks with his South African counterpart, Minister of International Relations and Cooperation Naledi Pandor in Pretoria, South Africa, 23 January 2023. (Photo: EPA-EFE / Kim Ludbrook)
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Perhaps the real reason that Pandor did not repeat her earlier call on Russia to withdraw from Ukraine is that the original call on February 24 last year apparently angered Russia and President Cyril Ramaphosa, who was quick to issue a counter-statement blaming Russia’s invasion of Ukraine on Nato for extending its membership up to Russia’s borders.
The warmth between the two governments and their foreign ministers was clearly evident in the meetings between Pandor and Lavrov on Monday when they pledged to strengthen relations even further in fields such as atomic energy, the peaceful use of space and infrastructure, and in seeking a more just system of international governance. Lavrov said Russia would grant more scholarships for South African undergraduate students to study in Russia.
Lavrov said he and Pandor had extensively discussed Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine (Russia never calls it a war and nor did Pandor).
“We appreciate the independent, well-balanced and considerate approach by our South African friends,” Lavrov said, adding that the meeting would give a new impetus to relations in a whole range of areas.
Both ministers firmly rejected criticism from the Democratic Alliance and others about the joint naval exercise, Operation Mosi 2, which South Africa, Russia and China are to conduct off the KwaZulu-Natal coast next month.
Critics have said it is insensitive to conduct joint naval drills with Russia when its navy is firing fusillades of missiles from the Black Sea into Ukrainian cities, killing hundreds of civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure such as electric substations, plunging the population into darkness and cold in mid-winter.
South Africa’s Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, Naledi Pandor, and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Sergey Lavrov during talks on 23 January 2023 in Pretoria, South Africa. (Photo: Jacoline Schoonees / Dirco)
Pandor accused critics of Exercise Mosi 2 of applying double standards, criticising developing and African countries for doing the things they did themselves.
“All countries conduct military exercises with friends, worldwide,” Pandor said, so there should be no compulsion on any country to conduct or not to conduct such exercises with whomever they chose to.
Pandor said no one in the media or elsewhere had complained about the military exercises which South Africa had conducted over the last year with other countries, such as Operation Shared Accord with the US or Operation Oxide with France.
Lavrov said there was nothing to comment on about Exercise Mosi 2 as it was being conducted by three sovereign countries “not violating any norms of international law”. He said the only ones likely to object to this exercise were “our American colleagues because they believe that only they can exercise all over the world”. He cited the current naval exercises the US was conducting near China in the Taiwan Strait, in the framework of the US Indo-Pacific Strategy.
Lavrov vehemently denied that Russia was deliberately targeting Ukrainian civilians and civilian infrastructure such as electricity grids.
“We don’t hit civilian infrastructure. There is a great amount of evidence testifying to that. All the damage to the civilian infrastructure is connected to the criminal actions by the Kyiv regime that has for months been deploying heavy weapons and air defence systems in residential areas.”
Lavrov said Western media accusing Russia of targeting Ukrainian civilian infrastructure now were ignoring what had been happening in Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region since 2014, when he said ethnic Russians had been persecuted and targeted by the Ukrainian government including by its banning mass media and education in the Russian language.
Asked what Russia was doing to seek peace, Lavrov claimed Moscow remained willing to negotiate with Ukraine. But he repeated his frequent claim that when Ukraine had been willing to negotiate in March last year, the US and the European Union had stepped in to say it was too early for peace negotiations and that Ukraine must continue fighting to increase the pressure on Russia.
A group of about 20 people mounted a protest against Lavrov’s visit at the entrance to the Department of International Relations and Cooperation where the two ministers met. The demonstrators, organised by the Ukrainian Association in South Africa, wielded posters proclaiming: “Lavrov, Putin’s Liar-in-Chief”, “Stand Against Mass Murderers”, “No Lie is too big for Putin’s Liar-in-Chief” and “Child Murderer”.
Lavrov was due to pay a “courtesy call” on Ramaphosa last night. He was then due to fly to Eswatini on the next leg of his African tour, according to Russian journalists accompanying him. After that, he would visit Angola and Eritrea. The journalists said Lavrov had originally intended to visit Botswana but had later substituted Eritrea. Russian authorities did not confirm his itinerary, apparently for security reasons. DM
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What a disgusting excuse for a human – but she’s in the ANC, what more can you expect. Sickens me to my core
Martin Ernst, please rather comment on what she said. In my view your comment is uncalled for and really offensive.
I agree! Dr Naledi Pandor is one of our finest politicians. As Minister of Science, she was superb! She is in a difficult situation, where South Africa has to show that it is loyal to BRICS but at the same time, natural justice cries out against Putin’s outrages.
She may be a fine politician – i.e. knows how to feather her own nest – but I’m with Martin, she is disgusting when it comes to humanity and moral fibre.
Thank goodness the likes of her, and everyone else in current ANC leadership, were not around during Apartheid – they would have gladly sold out the people for whatever filthy lucre the Nats offered them, just as they are today.
Completely agree with you, Kato. Posts are supposed to comments about the article, not personal attacks on individuals.
I’d say rather that it’s gullible and subservient not to.
These buffoons go out of their way to support every country that our major trading partners don’t support (Russia, Cuba, North Korea) believing that due to birthing Nelson Mandela we as a country have the collective higher moral ground and that the west will follow us, instead of realizing that we are seen for the buffoons we really are.
Anything more simplistic and infantile than the excuses offered by the ever-unctuous, floundering Pandor would be hard to find. Our only relief is that even her own party seems to have rejected her at last, and she may soon be out of the Cabinet. Yet another dangerous ANC cadre chumming up to the dictators and despots of the world. Have they any understanding at all of democracy, human rights or even just plain human decency?
In response to the questions you pose in your final sentence: “No”.
She is intelligent but blinded by anti west ideology. The ANC’s stance on Ukraine is plain stupidity at both political and economic levels – California has bigger economy than Russia for one and secondly the imperialist actions of Russia are supposed to be an anathema to the ANC. Who is getting paid what?
Is she? Would Willie Madisha agree.
How dare she! And the rest of then of course. Certainly not in the name of the majority of South Africans.
It takes huge courage to appear in public speaking like a total cretin. But just as we felt the bottom of the barrel could not be scraped any further, the good ol’ ruling elite finds another layer.
Actually, if one exists purely to be an ANC member, in love with Lenin’s idea of democracy rather than the real thing, then speaking like a total cretin is the norm for cabinet members – as we are discovering.
Comparing cabinet ministers to cretins is an insult to all cretins.
The government is placing undue emphasis on respecting the sovereignty of Russia. Sovereignty should be limited to govern your own country but should exclude forcing yourself on a neighbouring country. Our government should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty with the same vigour as it is showing Russia. Russia does not respect the sovereignty of the Ukraine so upholding this principle seems selective. I am not literate in international diplomacy, but I object to my government not taking a stand in an attempt to end this war. I am sure this is another miscalculation by the ANC for which it will pay at the polls. It looks to me that we are sitting on the fence whilst a country is being destroyed for no apparent reason other than one man’s desire for power. Minister Pandor, there are actual people being killed every day including children, the disabled and the elderly. Their homes, towns and businesses are being destroyed. Your passive stance on Russia in the name of respecting the sovereignty of another country is not good enough for me. I would like a detailed explanation in plain English why our government is acting the way it is. You at least owe us this much.
Well said
Excellent succinct response Maria !
South Africa, Eswatini, Angola and Eritrea. ………….a penny for Lavrov’s thoughts as he flies back to Moscow.
Ha ha yes indeed Garth, these bastions of economic and progressive achievements must be creating quite the conversation in the Kremlin. Donald Trump’s utterances about Africa spring to mind here.
Russia should try a naval drill with Eswatini, I’m pretty sure they have a better-equipped navy than ours 🙂
She is one person I used to respect – I cannot believe she can even be in the same room as Lavrov. If SA cannot stand against what Russia is doing then our government is complicit in murdering innocent civilians- Naledi you have joined the ranks of the criminals in your party – disgusting!
Don’t forget that this creature is a long time member of this criminal gang that happily killed civilians, women and children include in shopping centres and Wimpy Bars.
I also had a lot of respect for her. The initial DIRCO response is in line with what I believe her true viewpoint is. Unfortunately she was rebuked and undermined by Pres Ramaphosa and, as Minister, is obviously following the ANC government’s policy. Minister Pandor, save your personal integrity, take courage and resign!
I agree to an extent, but if she had any integrity, she would have resigned when originally rebuked. She chose to stay and toe the party line instead. Paper tiger…
Why did you respect her? Maybe because she talks fancy and appears to be intelligent? She has no more than an average intelligence (or initiative) – because if she did she would be in a different business altogether. She may have hated shaking the hand of that cockroach. But, she just toes the party line because she needs a salary. Willie Madisha spells it out perfectly. Go look it up in Youtube.
Pandor seems more concerned what Lavrov would think of her, instead of the public she is the servant of. That’s not surprising, I guess. As all ANC ministers she believes she is some kind of warped nobility in charge of her little fiefdom called Dirco, where she does what she wants, or in this case, what another sovereign power wants. Her reasons for continuing these talks are irrational and unbelievably arrogant, never mind ignorant of the consequences. I noticed no-one mentioned the lives, especially civilian lives, lost in this unjust war.
I was ashamed to be a South African during apartheid. I am ashamed again.
My thoughts exactly
Very simple. The day this exercise takes place, the USA and Europe/UK must sanction all the ANC politicians and kick SA out of AGOA alongside any other ‘freedom-loving’ African states who continue to ‘bless’ Russia. The reason the ANC is doing this is that Putin, as the leader of the former hub of the Soviet Empire, has reminded them whose support got them into power. Plus there are all sorts of shady backroom deals going on between Russia and the ANC – remember the Zuma/Gupta nuclear power deal? If SA is kicked out of AGOA we will all suffer the consequences, but at least the suffering will include the ANC, so to my mind that’s at least fair. If the ANC is allowed to carry on unchecked, we will all suffer except the ANC, whose bigwigs are clearly aiming for an oligarchic system like Russia’s,
The votes at the UN, this meeting, and naval exercises with Russia are things the the SA might have got away with as “passive” support for Russia. But the supply of armaments to a Russian ship in Simonstown is very much active support and is in the same category as North Korea’s armaments’ train to Russia, and puts us beyond the pale. I fear that the west will step up reaction to this – sanctions. We really have come full circle with these ANC clowns.
“whose support got them into power.” But, if my memory is intact, it was the Soviet Union, not Russia. And Ukraine was also a part of that Soviet Union.
Go do a bit of reading on the history of Ukraine. There’s no love lost.
Losing AGOA access would be a complete disaster for the automotive sector and some others that rely on preferential access to the US market. It’s very noble of you to say that “we will all suffer the consequences…. including the ANC”, but I’m guessing you don’t work in the industries that will close as a result of losing this access (and to EU markets if they followed suit). Moreover, asserting that the ANC will lose as well, is simply not true: the entire country is suffering from the self-imposed economic sanctions of ANC energy policy and they simply brush it off with a cold, seething hatred of ordinary South Africans and their temerity to want a functioning state. The ANC is quite prepared to sacrifice our economy for their puerile, luddite ideological stances and damn the consequences. Remember, they’re gonna rule ’til Jesus returns, baby!
So Russia’s own diplomat in Geneva, with 20 years experience, resigned in protest over the invasion of Ukraine, but Naledi Pandor sees no problem with having joint navel exercises with Russia on the anniversary of the invasion. Tells us something about the moral compass of Naledi Pandor.
And the ANC merely ignores the fact that Russia started the war in the first place. Therefore ANC policy is quite okay with foreign countries invading other countries for material gain. You cannot sink lower than this.
Nalediev Pandorovo has forgotten what Desmond Tutu said about neutrality in the face of injustice. No doubt, the war in Ukraine is unjust i.e. unjustified.
Only infantile person is Miss Pandor herself.
I noted Lavrov’s comment that damage to civilian targets in Ukraine is caused by Ukraine placing air defence systems in residential areas. I doubt that one needs to be a military genius for a government to place defence systems there.
Second, NATO is now in Eastern Europe because there is a psychopath as autocratic President in Russia.
“Simplistic and Infantile?” I think perhaps she is describing the ANC?
What Lavrov was really here for was to hear from the ANC how to destroy an electricity supply system, as the Russians have been less successful in Ukraine than the ANC has been here, and hence the Russians need help!
Hahaha!
An infantile comment by a Dirco Minister who is an ignomurus when it comes to international relations and international law. It is an insult to the UN Secretary – General, Guterres, whose first statement was to call for the Russians to withdraw from Ukraine. This goes for the Anglican Church and the Vatican not withstanding the majority of the international community through votes in the UN General Assembly. It is no wonder that South Africa is not taken seriously in Africa and the world because of this tavern diplomacy that she mouths and parading her ignorance in public. This is the cost of making clerks Ministers. They make ill informed statements. The call for the Russians to withdraw is in defence of the UN Charter , International Law and the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Unfortunately nobody takes any ANC or SACP clown on Ukraine seriously in this country given the damage they have done to energy, rail, education, health, roads and more seriously to the fiscus. We differentiate the people of South Africa who are behind Ukraine and the ANC regime beholden to the Russian oligarchs. We we learn very soon how much she was paid for the statement.
For me, & my observation, is her true beliefs lie in her first statement, that came from her heart & belief. But its amazing what Cadre’s will do to maintain their position of power, position & reward. They will sell true democracy down the road, for those 3 things, and less. Its a pity, because she is an intelligent Women, but as one comment said, “ blinded intentionally, by Anti West ideology” yet when USA threatens to remove SA’s privileged Trading Status, they behave themselves. To a degree.
Agree with your observation that her true belief lies in her first statement!
Agreed, but followed by a very public smack down by her less intelligent cohorts. What a pity she didn’t publicly resign and join Musi, Terror, or any other of the thinking parties.
Russia owns the ANC. No need to analyse this issue.
“Simplistic and infantile” to call for the vicious invader of an independent nation to withdraw its military forces and cease sending waves of missiles to destroy its cities and infrastructure? How can Minister Pandor speak such nonsense. What has happened to the integrity of Cyril Ramaphosa, who was once respected as a worthy colleague of Nelson Mandela?
“Simplistic and infantile”.The mind boggles-analogy an armed burglar breaks into your house-wrong to call in friends to help,put the kettle on and “negotiate”!
“Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap! Yap, yap, yap! Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap yap! Yap!” – squeaked the disheveled lap dog as it pandored about.
It is Pandor who is making herself guilty of double standards. If two sides are fighting each other and you want to be neutral, you can’t afford to be friend with any of the two sides. And if you criticize one side for what they may be doing wrong (as the SA government has done with the west more than once), then you HAVE to do it to the other side as well. The main offender in Ukraine is Russia, as we all know – even China has shown that they realise it, even if they don’t directly admit that – yet she is only criticizing the west and Russia not at all. So I suggest she decides if she wants to represent SA and its’ Constitutional values; currently she is not. Which is more, SA (and especially the ANC) is out of its’ depth trying to manipulate these world superpowers; the SA government should rather try to solve issues between smaller role players such as Palestine and Israel, or the warring factions in Ethiopea or the DRC and then using any successes we have in those endeavours to suggest that the rest of the world use that as role models for solutions on a higher level. But if we cosy up to one or other of the world superpowers (as the SA government, with this, is DEFINITELY doing) then all that can result is that we become a pawn in the endeavours of that superpower instead, and this applies especially to Russia. Because Russia is known for doing that, more than any western country or even China.
Oh dear! Another fine mess DIRCO.
I wonder if Minister Pandor would consider it infantile and simplistic to demand that Zimbabwe withdraw from South Africa had they invaded the northern provinces, taking over one-fifth of SA.
And will it be unpatriotic to support sanctions against South Africa? I am now even more ashamed of being a South African than I was under Apartheid.
There is one good thing about Minister Pandor; she has plunged the blade into the beast in its final throes. But all South Africans, black and white, rich and poor, those supporting the ANC and those against are in for a torrid time for the foreseeable future. She has helped turn us into a country without hope, and without a future.
Viva Pandor.
Zimbabwe doesn’t have to invade – millions live here already and send money home each month that they have earned by actually working.
The ANC is just treading water until the next elections. If the DA, IFP and like-minded partners get in then we will see some big changes. Russia under Putin will go to the naughty corner.
I doubt the ‘West’ is overly concerned. They’re probably just rolling their eyes at yet another failed African state’s laughable display of self-important grandiosity.
A few years ago I rented a flat above Simonstown and in the entire time I was there not a single ship left base. On one occasion a ship appeared to be venturing out to sea, but it u-turned, did a lap around the harbour and docked again. If we do manage to join the exercise the Russians are either going to be appalled or massively entertained.
Or, maybe, it’s a plan. Who supplied the ammo? Is S.A. about to sink the Russian fleet? With China’s help???
Nice one! Lol
Yes, my observations while living in St James were similar.
The US and the EU know that in the scheme of things the ANC does not represent South Africa on international matters but itself and would not punish the majority of South Africans because of a regime that is fighting to survive elections. They know that contrary to other countries, South Africa has different actors from churches to civil society that do not support the predatory regime of the ANC on Ukraine
and other issues. They know that South Africans are capable of dealing with the ANC regime at every level. They are conscious of its destruction to everything they have touched and the electorate has become aware of its incompetence including this Minister.
Perhaps the Minister can explain to poor South Africans exactly why the ‘special military operation’ being conducted by the Putin regime is so advantageous to them-after all, all they have seen since the beginning of the operation is a 36% increase in the price of cooking oil, a 14% rise in the cost of staple bread, a 48% increase in the price of diesel (which underpins the price if every other thing they buy) and a huge dip in the supply of electricity, but at the higher cost. Simplistic and infantile indeed.
I used to have regard for Pandor, but she seems to now be just following “her master’s voice”. Would she simalarly have castigated the Allies for their defense of Europe from Nazi aggression?
“We don’t hit civilian infrastructure.” What a liar!!!!
Absolute Drivel!
Thank you Mr Lavrov for visiting your 2nd home. We welcome you with open arms old friend. Don’t worry about this Johnny come lately to Human rights, they see their faces in Ukraine not humanity. We see Roghinga Muslims, Indeginous South Americans, Arabs especially Palestinians and many others. Let them scream @ the top their voices, it’s just noise. You have a right like every one in the world to protect Russians. AGOA and USA/EUROPE
trade is the usual threat. The Chinese today in Nigeria have unveiled the deepest port in West Africa. In Burkina Faso, Mali and CAR the French were send packing. Africa is on the New side of history. Together we can’t fail.
Yes, Russia has a right to protect Russia(ns). That does not include invading and attacking Ukraine.
Furthermore, I have watched Mr Lavrov since little green men invaded Crimea in in 2014. For weeks he repeatedly denied to the whole world that they were Russian troops. Any reasonably informed person with 2 brain cells soon knew they were Russian, but he continued lying outright. Since then I have lost all respect for him. I am a South African citizen, but he “ain’t no friend of mine”, my country is not his 2nd home, and he is certainly not welcome here.
What’s more the Chinese do it all without expecting anything in return! We look forward to the New side of history as a Chinese colony.
Indeed welcome. You are lucky to get your comments through. Mine are still being moderated,
days later.
While mainstream media is busy hammering out the views of their benefactors it is hardly surprising that many readers absorb this information as their sole source of information to form their world view. Knowingly, in many cases the information fits an already formed negative mindset. It relates and feeds in well to a time when the focus was on the rooi and swart gevaar that drove people into a laager of fear. Judging from most of the responses they portray this and highlight the negative logic and ignorance to the many facts that are out there. There have been many military exercises with many countries, some with a record of atrocities a mile and longer. Not a squeak. Even with all our Eskom problems the dim lights on the right seem to have somehow lit up on this issue.
The ANC is on the wrong side of history and I hope that karma does its work.
“We don’t hit civilian infrastructure.” Where is the PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence? Something isn’t true simply because Lavrov says it is? Therefore he is a liar, and Pandor is his lying accomplice. South Africa will pay dearly for this outrage. Wait!
History MUST judge Pandor. It will.
To answer your rhetorical question: Yes, something isn’t true simply because Lavrov said it is.
History MUST judge Pandor. It will.
“Simplistic and futile” would be precisely the words to use when trying to explain how, what had been considered wrong before, now with everything remaining unchanged, can be considered otherwise?
Typical ANC politicking, justifying the unjustifiable.
One could easily say the same thing about her party’s understanding of current geopolitical affairs and the economic fall-out our actions will lead to – simplistic and infantile
This is Africa . . . . .
Why is anyone surprised?
One more issue . . . same outcome
Just the result of the ANC’s romance with some vague political talk of “revolution” and proven, failed ideology. They really are adolescent twats.
Not quite sure why she doesn’t want to comment – everything from the ANC is “simplistic and infantile”
Also a bit thick to expect any financial support from Russia in future
How simplistic and/or infantile is it to believe Lavrov saying Russia does not attack civilian infrastructure, when (his boss) Putin told Russian national television that they are (targeting Ukraine’s energy infrastructure – a war crime agreed to by the beloved Soviet Union), or over physical proof of satellite images of Ukraine by night now compared to a year ago?
Naledi, please include in the Military exercise all the purchases made during the Arms Deal a few years ago. Is anything still working?